Teens Now Look Favorably On Torture Because Media Teaches Its Morally Acceptable

[Berkut]

Really?  The NKVD, who was in charge of the prisoner's couldn't get trucks or supplies from the Army. 

Oh well, if the left hand could not get stuff from the right hand, then I guess that makes it ok to just kill them all.

[The Brain]

Did you include the 3/5 factor for the relative worth of a Russian life?

[Razgovory]

Well, I agree with your basic point (better to be a German in Soviet hands than the reverse), but am not sure I really agree with its conclusion that there was any real difference in brutality levels. Sure, your odds of dieing as a German POW in Soviet hands were only 50% or maybe 60% compared to 80%, but I don't see that as being any great difference that would result in any kind of difference in judging the culpability of the relevant regimes.

Actually, it was closer to 15% for the Germans.

Don't bother.  Berkut isn't interested in facts, he's just trying to fight the "tribals", like me who doesn't have any connection to Russia.

[DGuller]

Weren't "liberated" Russian POWs summarily shot by the Red Army?

Being a Soviet POW who was back in Russian hands was not pleasant as well, but a sizable majority weren't even sent to the camps.  That's another myth.

Hey, not EVERYONE was murdered or sent to a prison camp! Just most of them! Errrh, or a bunch but probably not more than 50%. Or maybe a lot of them. Or the undesireables. Or the politically questionable.

Why, there were some that were not even punished for being captured AT ALL! It wasn't so bad!

Are you interested in discussing this, or you interested in being a jackass?

I was responding to Gups's point that Soviet POWs were executed en masse upon liberation.  While I'm in no way arguing that Soviets treated their own POWs humanely, to say that Soviet POWs were just executed upon liberation is vastly exaggerating.  You know, it's possible to point out exaggerations without defending what did happen.

Get a grip, please.

[Berkut]

Did you include the 3/5 factor for the relative worth of a Russian life?

It really does fucking suck to be a Soviet soldier.

I wonder what the odds of an 19 year old infantryman in some rifle division on May 30th 1941 being alive come 1946 were....has to be pretty terrible.

[Berkut]

Weren't "liberated" Russian POWs summarily shot by the Red Army?

Being a Soviet POW who was back in Russian hands was not pleasant as well, but a sizable majority weren't even sent to the camps.  That's another myth.

Hey, not EVERYONE was murdered or sent to a prison camp! Just most of them! Errrh, or a bunch but probably not more than 50%. Or maybe a lot of them. Or the undesireables. Or the politically questionable.

Why, there were some that were not even punished for being captured AT ALL! It wasn't so bad!

Are you interested in discussing this, or you interested in being a jackass?

I was responding to Gups's point that Soviet POWs were executed en masse upon liberation.  While I'm in no way arguing that Soviets treated their own POWs humanely, to say that Soviet POWs were just executed upon liberation is vastly exaggerating.  You know, it's possible to point out exaggerations without defending what did happen.

Get a grip, please.

It is not exaggerating at all - many Soviet POWs were in fact executed upon repatriation. Not to mention plenty of civilians, women and children.

The only way this would be an exaggeration is if someone claimed that all of them were - but no such claim has been made.

Which makes one wonder why you feel the need to apparently faux defend Soviet practices in regards to POWs.

[Norgy]

Execution would almost seem like a better option than being alive, which in many cases meant being black-listed and sent to new camps.

[Berkut]

Well, I agree with your basic point (better to be a German in Soviet hands than the reverse), but am not sure I really agree with its conclusion that there was any real difference in brutality levels. Sure, your odds of dieing as a German POW in Soviet hands were only 50% or maybe 60% compared to 80%, but I don't see that as being any great difference that would result in any kind of difference in judging the culpability of the relevant regimes.

Actually, it was closer to 15% for the Germans.

Those held in Soviet-occupied territory fared far worse. Officially, the Soviet Union took 2,388,000 Germans and 1,097,000 combatants from other European nations as prisoners during and just after the war. More than a million of the German captives died.

More than 1 million out of a little over 2 million. That is quite a bit more than 15%.

http://www.historynet.com/german-pows-and-the-art-of-survival.htm

[Razgovory]

I believe you claimed that "most" of them were.  While according to Wikipedia.  15% went to Gulags and 22% went to labor battalions.

The Black Book of Communism stated

The Black Book of Communism provides different numbers: 19.1% of ex-POWs were sent to penal battalions of the Red Army, 14.5% were sent to forced labour "reconstruction battalions" (usually for two years), and 360,000 people (about 8%) were sentenced to ten to twenty years in the Gulag.[44] The survivors were released during the general amnesty for all POWs and accused collaborators in 1955 on the wave of De-Stalinization following his death in 1953.

But I guess in Berkut world that actually makes up more then half.  Cue Berkut laughing in ignorance.

[ulmont]

I wonder what the odds of an 19 year old infantryman in some rifle division on May 30th 1941 being alive come 1946 were....has to be pretty terrible.

It was pretty brutal.  See Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945.
http://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life-Death-1939-1945/dp/0805074554
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/15/books/15grim.html

[Razgovory]

Well, I agree with your basic point (better to be a German in Soviet hands than the reverse), but am not sure I really agree with its conclusion that there was any real difference in brutality levels. Sure, your odds of dieing as a German POW in Soviet hands were only 50% or maybe 60% compared to 80%, but I don't see that as being any great difference that would result in any kind of difference in judging the culpability of the relevant regimes.

Actually, it was closer to 15% for the Germans.

Those held in Soviet-occupied territory fared far worse. Officially, the Soviet Union took 2,388,000 Germans and 1,097,000 combatants from other European nations as prisoners during and just after the war. More than a million of the German captives died.

More than 1 million out of a little over 2 million. That is quite a bit more than 15%.

http://www.historynet.com/german-pows-and-the-art-of-survival.htm

Those aren't the only stats.  I've seen much lower, like less then 400,000 out of over 3 million.

[DGuller]

Which makes one wonder why you feel the need to apparently faux defend Soviet practices in regards to POWs.

Similarly, it makes one wonder why you're so zealous to equate Soviets to the Nazis.  Surely it just can't be a tribal propaganda of its own, can be?

I'm not trying to defend the Soviets, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective by refuting to common myths, which seemed to be rooted in Cold War propaganda.  One, German POWs in general didn't have it nearly as bad as Soviet POWs did, even if both situations were far from enviable.  Two, Soviets did not repress most of their own who did surrender and survive the camps.

Notice how I am not claiming that the German POWs who did die in Soviet hands deserved it, or how repatriated Soviet POWs who did get executed or sent to the camps deserved it.

It should be possible to point out that, for example, only 1 million died instead of 10 millions claimed by someone, without defending the deaths of the 1 million.  Otherwise, once someone kills even one person unlawfully, everyone else can inflate the body count up to a billion without being challenged, which would be at the very least lead to bad knowledge of history.

[Berkut]

I believe you claimed that "most" of them were.  While according to Wikipedia.  15% went to Gulags and 22% went to labor battalions.

The Black Book of Communism stated

The Black Book of Communism provides different numbers: 19.1% of ex-POWs were sent to penal battalions of the Red Army, 14.5% were sent to forced labour "reconstruction battalions" (usually for two years), and 360,000 people (about 8%) were sentenced to ten to twenty years in the Gulag.[44] The survivors were released during the general amnesty for all POWs and accused collaborators in 1955 on the wave of De-Stalinization following his death in 1953.

But I guess in Berkut world that actually makes up more then half.  Cue Berkut laughing in ignorance.

Uhh, no, I made no claim at all about the numbers, other than that there were a lot of them.

I certianly do not think it was anywhere near 50%.

Although it is rather funny that your source says...lets see, this is kind of complex math...hmmm....

19.1% sent to penal battalions....
14.5% to forced labor camps...

Well, that alone right there is lets see...carry the three...some 35% being punished for the crime of being captured...

Yeah, nothing to see here, move along.

[Berkut]

Which makes one wonder why you feel the need to apparently faux defend Soviet practices in regards to POWs.

Similarly, it makes one wonder why you're so zealous to equate Soviets to the Nazis.  Surely it just can't be a tribal propaganda of its own, can be?

I'm not trying to defend the Soviets, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective by refuting to common myths, which seemed to be rooted in Cold War propaganda.  One, German POWs in general didn't have it nearly as bad as Soviet POWs did, even if both situations were far from enviable.  Two, Soviets did not repress most of their own who did surrender and survive the camps.

Notice how I am not claiming that the German POWs who did die in Soviet hands deserved it, or how repatriated Soviet POWs who did get executed or sent to the camps deserved it.

It should be possible to point out that, for example, only 1 million died instead of 10 millions claimed by someone, without defending the deaths of the 1 million.  Otherwise, once someone kills even one person unlawfully, everyone else can inflate the body count up to a billion without being challenged, which would be at the very least lead to bad knowledge of history.

Someone claimed that 10 million out of 3.5 million were killed?

I can see why that would upset you.

[Razgovory]

I believe you claimed that "most" of them were.  While according to Wikipedia.  15% went to Gulags and 22% went to labor battalions.

The Black Book of Communism stated

The Black Book of Communism provides different numbers: 19.1% of ex-POWs were sent to penal battalions of the Red Army, 14.5% were sent to forced labour "reconstruction battalions" (usually for two years), and 360,000 people (about 8%) were sentenced to ten to twenty years in the Gulag.[44] The survivors were released during the general amnesty for all POWs and accused collaborators in 1955 on the wave of De-Stalinization following his death in 1953.

But I guess in Berkut world that actually makes up more then half.  Cue Berkut laughing in ignorance.

Uhh, no, I made no claim at all about the numbers, other than that there were a lot of them.

I certianly do not think it was anywhere near 50%.

Although it is rather funny that your source says...lets see, this is kind of complex math...hmmm....

19.1% sent to penal battalions....
14.5% to forced labor camps...

Well, that alone right there is lets see...carry the three...some 35% being punished for the crime of being captured...

Yeah, nothing to see here, move along.

Hey, not EVERYONE was murdered or sent to a prison camp! Just most of them! Errrh, or a bunch but probably not more than 50%. Or maybe a lot of them. Or the undesireables. Or the politically questionable.

Why, there were some that were not even punished for being captured AT ALL! It wasn't so bad!