Teens Now Look Favorably On Torture Because Media Teaches Its Morally Acceptable

[Berkut]

Berkut is done with the debate, quit kicking the dead horse.  He held out politely for a long time, but finally our obnoxiousness wore him down. 

Wow, your willingness to join even Raz in what is clearly a fabrication of what I have said says a lot about your integrity DG. Nothing new when it comes to your "debate style", sadly.

I stated with perfect clarity that I do not think what Raz claims I said, you read it, and still cheer him on. At least he has the "oh, but I am kind of nuts excuse".

Good job, as usual, turning this into a shit flinging exercise once your conclusions were demolished.

[DGuller]

Berkut is done with the debate, quit kicking the dead horse.  He held out politely for a long time, but finally our obnoxiousness wore him down. 

Wow, your willingness to join even Raz in what is clearly a fabrication of what I have said says a lot about your integrity DG. Nothing new when it comes to your "debate style", sadly.

I stated with perfect clarity that I do not think what Raz claims I said, you read it, and still cheer him on. At least he has the "oh, but I am kind of nuts excuse".

Good job, as usual, turning this into a shit flinging exercise once your conclusions were demolished.

This debate says nothing about my integrity.  The fact that you went into this with guns blazing, and then got out with tail tucked between your legs once you were challenged, calling me a liar as a parting argument, does say something about you.  Quite frankly, based on your sorry performance in this thread, you lack any sort of credibility to call me a liar or an abusive debater.  You likewise lack the credibility to declare yourself a winner.

[Razgovory]

Raz, why are you lying?

You are quoting me paraphrasing someone else, and further quoting me even in the paraphrase stating that the numbers are "probably not more than 50%", so why would you insist that I said I thought it was more than 50%, even after I explicitly stated that I do not think that is the case?

How can I be more clear than to say "No, I do not think that more than 50% of Soviet POWs sent back to the USSR were punished"?

How can I be lying?  I'm taking two of your quotes on the same subject and showing they are completely inconsistent.  One where you claim something and one where you claim never to have made that original claim.

[Berkut]

Lets try to move this back to a more rational basis.

DG, where would you place the actions of the Germans in respect to their treatment of POWs, and where would you place the actions of the USSR on the same scale, considering the totality of that treatment?

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "Wow, you guys sure are nice to people that were trying to kill you" and 10 being "Gee, I cannot really imagine how you could possibly be any worse" I stick the Nazis are about 9 and the USSR around 8.

They are both well into the "You guys are fucking sick bastards that exemplify just how horrible humans can actually be to one another". If the Soviets were slightly less horrible, it is a matter of choosing between pretty thin differences. They most certainly made it clear that if they found it expedient, they had zero compunction about simply murdering any number of people - just like the Nazis.

My suspicion is that the differences in the numbers are more related to differences in how many people each regime decided were more useful dead than alive, rather than any actual moral differences in the standards they used. In other words, I don't think there were many groups either regime thought "Well, we would rather them all be dead, but that would be wrong, so we won't just kill them".

Both regimes made it clear that genocide was an acceptable tool of the state when it suited them.

[Berkut]

Berkut is done with the debate, quit kicking the dead horse.  He held out politely for a long time, but finally our obnoxiousness wore him down. 

Wow, your willingness to join even Raz in what is clearly a fabrication of what I have said says a lot about your integrity DG. Nothing new when it comes to your "debate style", sadly.

I stated with perfect clarity that I do not think what Raz claims I said, you read it, and still cheer him on. At least he has the "oh, but I am kind of nuts excuse".

Good job, as usual, turning this into a shit flinging exercise once your conclusions were demolished.

This debate says nothing about my integrity.  The fact that you went into this with guns blazing, and then got out with tail tucked between your legs once you were challenged, calling me a liar as a parting argument, does say something about you.  Quite frankly, based on your sorry performance in this thread, you lack any sort of credibility to call me a liar or an abusive debater.  You likewise lack the credibility to declare yourself a winner.

[Slargos]

I would note that the Germans were dealing with sub human scum, but I suspect this argument though pristine would fall on deaf ears.

[Berkut]

I would note that the Germans were dealing with sub human scum, but I suspect this argument though pristine would fall on deaf ears.

I would respond, but I think Raz might take me quoting you as me saying it, then repeating it over and over while DG cheers him on.

Oh.
Crap.

[DGuller]

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "Wow, you guys sure are nice to people that were trying to kill you" and 10 being "Gee, I cannot really imagine how you could possibly be any worse" I stick the Nazis are about 9 and the USSR around 8.

With Mongols being a 10, and Western Allies being a 2, Nazi treatment of Soviet POWs rates a 9.  Soviet treatment of German POWs rates a 6.  Soviets would score a lot higher against certain segments of their own population than they would against German POWs.

[Slargos]

I would note that the Germans were dealing with sub human scum, but I suspect this argument though pristine would fall on deaf ears.

I would respond, but I think Raz might take me quoting you as me saying it, then repeating it over and over while DG cheers him on.

Oh.
Crap.

Too late.

One - of - us.

One - of - us.

[crazy canuck]

How can I be lying?  I'm taking two of your quotes on the same subject and showing they are completely inconsistent.  One where you claim something and one where you claim never to have made that original claim.

You should go back and re-read what you are quoting from.

[Razgovory]

How can I be lying?  I'm taking two of your quotes on the same subject and showing they are completely inconsistent.  One where you claim something and one where you claim never to have made that original claim.

You should go back and re-read what you are quoting from.

So I should read it as Berkut agreeing with DGuller?

[Berkut]

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "Wow, you guys sure are nice to people that were trying to kill you" and 10 being "Gee, I cannot really imagine how you could possibly be any worse" I stick the Nazis are about 9 and the USSR around 8.

With Mongols being a 10, and Western Allies being a 2, Nazi treatment of Soviet POWs rates a 9.  Soviet treatment of German POWs rates a 6.  Soviets would score a lot higher against certain segments of their own population than they would against German POWs.

So you think the difference between what the Nazis did and what the Soviets did (which includes things like the Katyn Massacre) is about equivalent to the difference between what the Allies did and what the Soviets did.

Well, I guess there isn't much to argue about there. If you really believe that routinely murdering people and working them to death as a matter of policy is, you know, bad, but not really BAD, then ok.

I am sticking with the obvious conclusion though - regimes that murder prisoners in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are pretty fucking bad, and making distinctions between them is pretty bizarre.

[crazy canuck]

So I should read it as Berkut agreeing with DGuller?

You should realize that the point you are attempting to make is not accurate.

[Razgovory]

So I should read it as Berkut agreeing with DGuller?

You should realize that the point you are attempting to make is not accurate.

Oh, what point is that Oh, master of Operation Compass?

[Berkut]

So I should read it as Berkut agreeing with DGuller?

You should realize that the point you are attempting to make is not accurate.

Which is blindingly obvious to everyone. Except maybe Raz.