Game of Thrones begins....

[Berkut]

So Jon was beaten, badly, by Ramsey Bolton in the field. Ramsey was clearly the superior commander - indeed, it wasn't even close. But he is saved in the end by the timely arrival of the Knights, and Ramsey was screwed through dumb bad luck on his part.

Arya got her ass kicked because she wasn't bright enough to realize that the nice little old lady was an assassin, even though she new that they were coming after her, and would be disguised as someone else. She is then chased around after her benefactor is killed, beaten to a pulp, and somehow off screen kills the chick  who has kicked her ass consistently because she found her sword. Apparently having a sword, something incredibly common, is all that was keeping her from being able to beat blondie. too bad Blondie didn't realize that.

Sansa walks right into a marriage with Ramsey, with no plan, no strategy, no idea at all how such a marriage can possibly end in any way other than disaster, and of course it does exactly that. She gets away from dumb luck because Theon helps her and they, just in the nick of time of course, run into Brienne.

Daneyr's is the only protagonist in the show who is not a complete moron, who seems to actually do things, rather than have things happen she has no control over. But even then they cannot seem to avoid falling into the same manufactured crisis with eye rolling resolutions. Like ultra flammable huts. At least SHE started the damn thing on fire though.

What is annoying about all this is that it appears to all be in the service of the writers needing to create artificial tension and drama by repeatedly putting their "heroes" into situations that they cannot possibly get out of, but of course we know that they will through some stupid, dumb luck or ridiculous bullshit like "Oh, this actress knows how to stop guy wounds from becoming septic! Surely! Because she used to stab her boyfriends all the time! Oh look, now she is dead, isn't that terribly sad?".

I think the writers, for the most part, are relying on all the *other* things about the show that are so good to carry it - acting, sets, production, the overarching story and our commitment to it. The actual writing itself is consistently lazy and amateurish.

[Admiral Yi]

I wouldn't call the arrival of the Vale knights bad luck for Ramsey.  The effect of actions (such as raping Sansa) on alliances and potential enemies should be part of strategic calculations.  Plus a more competent military commander would have had intelligence of the massing of forces at Moat Cailin (which is within Northern territory) and would have deployed outriders to prevent being surprised while engaged with Jon's army.

[Berkut]

Fair enough, but it was certainly bad luck in the context of that battle. He had it thoroughly won on the basis of simply being a hell of a lot better commander than anyone on the Snow side.

And intelligence, like the ability of Dragons, is completely based on what is convenient for the writers. Had they wanted to make it clear that Ramsey lost *because* he didn't post outriders, or pay attention to what was going on, they would need to make that clear.

And they could have - they could have made the battle work out basically the same, but have the appearance of the knights actually be part of Jons plan - keeping them hidden until the critical moment, and drawing Ramsey into a ill advised attack based on faulty assumptions.

Nope, that wouldn't provide any fake drama, can't have that! Instead just have Jon act like a complete fucking moron who frankly deserved to get killed, and then have the knight sweep in and save the day.

[grumbler]

The battle was kinda crap.

why do you think this? vale knights saving the day?

The Jon Snow Is An Idiot start to it, then the horse shoe pike wall, and the huge mountain of bodies... I liked the way they showed some first-person views of how confusing everything is in a battle, but the overall battle sequence just wasn't very satisfying.

The charge of the Rohirrim was expected, so that didn't bother me.

[viper37]

Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.

Last week, people complained about the Blackfish being "revived" and just killed off screen...

No, I did not wondered if Jon was really going to die.  I did not think he was going to die after being revived in the 1st episode.  I will not speak for everyone, but I assume the vast majority of the viewers knew this battle was coming, how it would go, how it would end.

Yes it is unimaginative.  But I just don't know how they could have done it differently and still make it work like they did.  Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.  But he had to die.  Otherwise, there would have been a challenge to Sansa's rule, since he is a boy.  Just like in the books there is a form of challenge to Daenerys, that will eventually disapear.

The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Do you consider the original work (the books) to be a masterpiece of english litterature?

[PRC]

The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion. 

[Habbaku]

I think we should all agree to honor the dead by spelling Ramsay's name correctly.

[Sophie Scholl]

I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.

[Berkut]

Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.

Last week, people complained about the Blackfish being "revived" and just killed off screen...

No, I did not wondered if Jon was really going to die.  I did not think he was going to die after being revived in the 1st episode.  I will not speak for everyone, but I assume the vast majority of the viewers knew this battle was coming, how it would go, how it would end.

Yes it is unimaginative.  But I just don't know how they could have done it differently and still make it work like they did.  Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.  But he had to die.

You really could not have imagined how it could possibly be done any differently? That is something of a lack of imagination. I could imagine all kinds of ways to do it differently.

Example, and I am literally thinking off the top of my head.

Jon and Sansa know the Knights are coming, and plan accordingly. Set it up so that Ramsay is using Rickon to blackmail them into not acting. In fact, set up a scene such that Ramsay is counting on Sansa's unwillingness to risk her brother to save himself, and then have Sansa coldly let Rickon die rather than give up her need for vengeance. Indeed, have her use Rickon's life, and spend it, to allow their own plan to spring the Knights on Ramsay to work.

That would be powerful, and really drive home the message of the entire set of stories. Even the best of the good guys will still sacrifice their loved ones for their personal goals. Of course, that takes a bit more work than "Oh lets have Jon be super stupid and get saved at the last moment when everyone is sure he is going to die!"

Otherwise, there would have been a challenge to Sansa's rule, since he is a boy.  Just like in the books there is a form of challenge to Daenerys, that will eventually disapear.

The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Do you consider the original work (the books) to be a masterpiece of english litterature?

Masterpiece of English literature? No, not really - does anyone?

I do think they are some of the most entertaining fiction I have ever read though, and I've read a lot.

[Habbaku]

I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As much as I would have a loved a "The North Remembers"-style betrayal to turn the tide (which, by the way, I think we're going to get next episode, and I still think will end up winning Stannis the Battle of Winterfell in the next book), they can't do that in the show, because that would prevent Tormund from living up to his Giantsbane name by killing Umber (the Northern giant) single-handed.

[Admiral Yi]

This season may be the worst.

[Habbaku]

At least in terms of writing quality, I agree.  It's still not terrible, and still has great elements, but none of the previous season's sense of surprise or amazement is there.  It has been a very A->B->C->D style of progression thus far, with nothing in terms of misdirection for the viewers.

[Razgovory]

I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.

I suspect that pikes combat would result in piles of corpses.  Not a pile that's as tall as man, but still piles.

[Josquius]

I was expecting that in the battle we would have seen some of the Bolton side change sides.
Sit on the sidelines during the battle and then when it looks like things are going jons way join on his side.
It would fit with the whole historic analogue thing grrm likes. Guess  the book version shall do this



I wonder how they will deal with little finger now.
I mean. When you think about it he now rules the north. The north has lost most of its fighting men and there he is. Open door to winter fell,  with all these shiny knights.

The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion. 

Actually... to think about it this adds more sense to his firing on his own men.
Rather than established lords who may have ruled under the starks or the heirs of such people he replaces the Lords of the north with the younger brothers, baby sons, etc... far easier to rule.

[Martinus]

If Jon knew the Knights were coming, why in the world did he attack at that time? That makes him even more stupid.

Who said anything about Jon knowing the Knights were coming? Only because a character has no knowledge that rescue is coming does not make it "deus ex machina".