Game of Thrones begins....

[LaCroix]

Of course they do - but lacroix knows better, and insists that they only have as much as you see them breathe and no more, because they are just toddler dragons.

but I never said this, berkie

[Berkut]

Of course they do - but lacroix knows better, and insists that they only have as much as you see them breathe and no more, because they are just toddler dragons.

but I never said this, berkie

You said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

[Tamas]

Overall this episode was a letdown.

I appreciate the realism effort they (wanted) to put into the battle scene, like the shield wall thingie and especially showing the chaos through the ground level eyes of Jon, but the piles of bodies (just WTF), the deus ex machina Vale arriving in such a way that not even the characters seemed surprised too much.. It was just very lame apart from a moment here and there.

And yes the dothraki scene was absolutely cringe-worthy.

And stop pretending there is a detailed background system created to account for dragon breath reserves and rate of consumption.

[LaCroix]

they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves

[Berkut]

So, to sum up - my entire point about the dragons is that the writers were, again, kind of lazy in how the handled her entire return. The dragons are the "perfect" weapon, and they can do pretty much everything.

Now, I guess we can argue about whether or not dragons can spit this much fire or that much fire, but that isn't the point.

We know that in fact they can spit exactly as much fire as the writers want them to spit - therefore, their imagined inability to spit MORE is not an excuse for lazy writing. In fact, IMO, the dragons being so perfectly powerful is lazy writing in and of itself. Like the Knights of the Vale, they just give the writers an easy out so they don't have to actually resolve the idiotic, stupid shit they have their characters do in the rather shallow (IMO) attempt to make the viewer think they are in real danger. It is lazy drama, and it doesn't even work.

Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.

The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

[The Minsky Moment]

Overall this episode was a letdown.

I appreciate the realism effort they (wanted) to put into the battle scene, like the shield wall thingie

Yeah about that - nothing we know about Westeros or the North suggests it would make sense that they would fight Greek hoplite style like that.  Especially given these are just disparate feudal elements only recently thrown together.

[Berkut]

they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves

They are magical creatures, and most definitely not simply "biological". You know how you can tell?

They breathe fire.

[Josquius]

I think there was a bit of a disconnect between the script and what we saw.
What people said seemed to suggest there was a fair bit of the attacking fleet left. What we saw was the dragons taking the whole thing to pieces. Stupidly.

It does somewhat put the whole the dragon has 3 heads thing into a weird place that dany can lead all 3 like that....


The dothraki....meh. I don't see the same problems people here do.
It makes sense that people would be trying to flee the city and that the harpies would be killing them as they go.
What I wonder though is- do we really trust the dothraki?
Why would they target just the harpies and not get to work raping and pillaging the people?
Sure. They're loyal to Dany. But that's the way even regular pre 20th century armies work let alone a culture based around raping and pillaging.

Nobody wondered if Jon was really going to die.

I dunno, I somewhat thought he might.
It would be quite clever in light of all the "Jon is dead" comments before the series began...yes he came back to life but he died again.
Could also be quite interesting for showing him losing his identity.


And Dany villain origin- definitely.

[LaCroix]

so,

You said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?

[Admiral Yi]

so,

You said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?

Because dragons are a purely offensive weapon and cannot hold territory.

[Berkut]

so,

You said it exactly as much as I said "dragons, while mystical creatures, have a magical, infinite supply of fire to breathe".

you are saying this? I'm not following your argument.

Of course not, which is why I responded to you claiming I did by playing along with the "lets make strawmen!" game. It seemed fun.

if dani's dragons currently have the same amount of fire breathing ability as the targ conqueror's dragons, then why doesn't she fly over to westeros and seize the kingdom?

Because she needs troops as well as dragons. You can't just incinerate everyone. Also, she doesn't seem the "burn them all to ash" sort.

Presumably she wants to actually rule, and not just go kill a lot of people. For that she needs an army.

[viper37]

the deus ex machina Vale arriving in such a way that not even the characters seemed surprised too much..

Ramsey was surprised.  Sansa was not, for obvious reasons.  Jon and Thormund were not, because they discussed it before, when Jon cut Sansa short as she was urging him to wait.

And stop pretending there is a detailed background system created to account for dragon breath reserves and rate of consumption.

No one pretends that.

We do pretend that what Berkut sees as lazy writing is totally logical.  They didn't just need to defeat the ennemy, they wanted them to know they were defeated.  And they wanted the ships for themselves.

[Razgovory]

they're biological creatures. look at the fire blast vs. how large they are. I don't think they could go on for hours. doesn't seem likely. if they have as much as you originally claimed (enough to burn down a whole fleet/army), then daenerys doesn't need to bother with an army. she can take them right now and win westeros. I think she needs an army because the dragons alone aren't powerful enough to do that yet. the massive dragons in the original targaryen invasion pretty much beat the seven kingdoms by themselves

They are magical creatures, and most definitely not simply "biological". You know how you can tell?

They breathe fire.

Also, they fly.  There is nothing realistic about dragons.  Anyway arguing about the "realism" of dragons is an idiot.  Moreover, they are plot devices.

[Habbaku]

The overall arc is presumably driven by Martin (I hope anyway), but the details of execution are mostly very unimaginative, if usually extremely well executed.

Martin's guidance over the show has been really limited the last two years, from what I have gleaned by public statements and the like.  And the last episode he wrote was back in season 4.  I am sure they still consult with him every now and then, but he has publicly and repeatedly stated that the two stories are different beasts at this point.

[LaCroix]

Because dragons are a purely offensive weapon and cannot hold territory.

westeros was conquered with three dragons and 1,600-3,000 men. dani has had more than that for awhile. in the books, there's lots of discussion about how the dragons aren't yet fully grown. this suggests the dragons don't have the full strength of aegon's dragons.