Game of Thrones begins....

[Martinus]

Fair enough, but it was certainly bad luck in the context of that battle. He had it thoroughly won on the basis of simply being a hell of a lot better commander than anyone on the Snow side.

And intelligence, like the ability of Dragons, is completely based on what is convenient for the writers. Had they wanted to make it clear that Ramsey lost *because* he didn't post outriders, or pay attention to what was going on, they would need to make that clear.

And they could have - they could have made the battle work out basically the same, but have the appearance of the knights actually be part of Jons plan - keeping them hidden until the critical moment, and drawing Ramsey into a ill advised attack based on faulty assumptions.

Nope, that wouldn't provide any fake drama, can't have that! Instead just have Jon act like a complete fucking moron who frankly deserved to get killed, and then have the knight sweep in and save the day.

I think you are misreading the tropes here. The arrival of the Knights of the Vale was not about "the knights sweeping in and saving the day". It was about Littlefinger waiting until the Northerners virtually slaughter each other, before sweeping in and finishing off the stragglers.

I haven't for a second believed as you seem to do that it was a Helmsdeep situation, with Littlefinger riding at a breakneck speed and arriving just at the last moment so he could  save the day - I think he had plenty of time and was waiting for the last moment to arrive, before Ramsay's total victory.

[Martinus]

Rickon's death could have been done differently, that was a pretty stupid way to die, running in a straight line like that.

Well if he zig-zagged, Ramsay would have simply commanded his archers to do a blanket fire. So from some perspective, it makes sense to try to outrun the range as fast as possible.

[Martinus]

The last episode was visually great, but too many eye-rolling moments.  Not as many episode eight thankfully. 

One of the parts I didn't like was Ramsay firing on his own knights.  It fits with his character sure, but as knights wouldn't those men have been nobles loyal to his house and actually have brought their own men to the battle.  I get that Ramsay is a psycho but I don't think fear alone would inspire such loyalty particularly on a battlefield when a knife in the back could happen without much repercussion.

Again, I disagree. It is not a psycho tactics. It's a legitimate military tactics if a bit on a ruthless side. And his "excuse" could have been "if I didn't do it, we would lose so we would all be dead anyway".

And the noble lords fighting by his side know that if they lose and survive, they are going to be deemed traitors and/or overrun by hordes of wildlings. It's not your typical battle between noble lords from the Bolton side (just as it isn't from the Stark side).

[Martinus]

I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As to the "wall of the dead" apparently they were inspired by photographs and accounts from American Civil War battles of similar occurrences.  Apparently no one informed them that the tactics and weaponry were quite different.

A "North remembers" betrayal would have been cool - but why would they ever do it? They are on the ostensibly winning side. They are facing a horde of Wildlings and the man who brought them here. And they think they can rise higher under a Bolton than under a Stark. There is absolutely no reason for Umbers or anyone else to betray Ramsay until the Knights of the Vale show up.

I think you are thinking in terms of dramatic payoff and not realism - which is not compatible with the usual GoT narrative.

[Gups]

I thought the battle scenes were generally dreadful.  Particular lowlights were the ridiculous mounds of bodies, the super disciplined shield wall manoeuvre executed while the wildlings just stood around and watched and the nick of time attack by the knights of the vale in which they knock over the Bolton forces (all armed with pikes) like dominos. 

This season started so well but as declined badly in the last couple of episodes.

[Martinus]

I thought the battle was very good. 

[The Larch]

I thought the battle was very good. 

Visually it is, and it works great for a TV show, but it's better not to look too deeply into the details IMO.

[grumbler]

Again, I disagree. It is not a psycho tactics. It's a legitimate military tactics if a bit on a ruthless side. And his "excuse" could have been "if I didn't do it, we would lose so we would all be dead anyway".

I quite agree.  Remember that his troops have armor, and the Wildlings do not, so arrow fire into the melee will disproportionately effect the Wildlings.

[Hamilcar]

One of the things that makes grumbler who he is is the fact he can never be wholly satisfied with anything except Babylon 5.

While B5 has a number of problems (mostly caused by external factors), it's the best-written epic TV series of all time.

[viper37]

You really could not have imagined how it could possibly be done any differently? That is something of a lack of imagination.

How long have we known each another on these forums? 10? 15 years?  You only recently noticed that!?

Jon and Sansa know the Knights are coming, and plan accordingly. Set it up so that Ramsay is using Rickon to blackmail them into not acting. In fact, set up a scene such that Ramsay is counting on Sansa's unwillingness to risk her brother to save himself, and then have Sansa coldly let Rickon die rather than give up her need for vengeance. Indeed, have her use Rickon's life, and spend it, to allow their own plan to spring the Knights on Ramsay to work.

Jon doesn't know about the Knights, she went behind his back because he did not listen to her.
And she did abandon Rickon, when she said he was already dead while Jon wanted to save him.
The old Sansa would never have let that happen like that, or she would have totally lost it on the battlefield.

Masterpiece of English literature? No, not really - does anyone?

I don't know.  I've been told by people it was crap litterature, but I liked it.
I was just wondering if you were the Grumbler type where any kind of variation from the source material and all intended consequences are automatically bad.
It turns out we just have a diffence of opinion

I do think they are some of the most entertaining fiction I have ever read though, and I've read a lot.

Yeah, it's better than most Star Wars books I've read.

[garbon]

I was hoping after Ramsay backed out of the one on one combat and unloaded on his own knights that when things looked bleakest, the Umbars would have switched sides again.  "Sorry about the whole killed Shaggy Dog and turning Rickon over, but... friends?"  It would have created a lot of fun tension as to if they could be forgiven, trusted, and how the choices of Sansa and Jon would impact the rest of the North.  After the Umbars turn out to be the decisive factor, have the Knights of the Vale show up too late and basically be bystanders to the finishing off of the Bolton loyalists.  Now Sansa would look like an untrustworthy and scheming overlord and also still owe Littlefinger a favor for showing up, even if too late.

As much as I would have a loved a "The North Remembers"-style betrayal to turn the tide (which, by the way, I think we're going to get next episode, and I still think will end up winning Stannis the Battle of Winterfell in the next book), they can't do that in the show, because that would prevent Tormund from living up to his Giantsbane name by killing Umber (the Northern giant) single-handed.

Is that important?

[viper37]

I thought the battle scenes were generally dreadful.  Particular lowlights were the ridiculous mounds of bodies, the super disciplined shield wall manoeuvre executed while the wildlings just stood around and watched and the nick of time attack by the knights of the vale in which they knock over the Bolton forces (all armed with pikes) like dominos. 

Mound of bodies: 8000 soldiers on the field, near all concentrated in one spot and archers firing constantly.  You are expecting no bodies?
Shield wall: if you're an untrained wildling (and that is a mistake from Jon, he was on the other side, and he said it: "discipline beats numbers 9 out 10 times", and he has neither the discipline, neither the numbers) facing this shield wall, how do you react exactly?  You can't flank them, they sort of surround you.
The spearmen: how do you think the phalanx of ancient times were defeated?  Infantry on one side, cavalry flanking them from the rear.  One rank has the shield, the other have the spears.  If you turn around to defend against a sudden cavalry charge, you leave your other side open to infantry attack that can remove the shield from the bearers.
 

I wonder how they will deal with little finger now.
I mean. When you think about it he now rules the north. The north has lost most of its fighting men and there he is. Open door to winter fell,  with all these shiny knights.

I'm guessing he'll propose marriage to Sansa.  And maybe attack the Frey before going back North.

[grumbler]

I was just wondering if you were the Grumbler type where any kind of variation from the source material and all intended consequences are automatically bad.

If you are going to take cheap shots out of the blue, you will look less moronic if you try to make them somewhat believable.  I have consistently held that the show's deviations from the books have mostly been necessary and justified due to the medium and the time constraints.  That's pretty much the opposite of this lie you are trying to sell, and it says a lot about the "Viper type" that you would choose to post a calumny rather than pass up what may have seemed a good chance to take a cheap shot.

[Martinus]

One of the things that makes grumbler who he is is the fact he can never be wholly satisfied with anything except Babylon 5.

While B5 has a number of problems (mostly caused by external factors), it's the best-written epic TV series of all time.

I would say it is possibly the best original TV epic (so excluding GoT, which is based on books).

[Hamilcar]

I would say it is possibly the best original TV epic (so excluding GoT, which is based on books).

Agreed. Plus, GRRM needs to write.