Game of Thrones begins....

[crazy canuck]

It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?

  You don't get "irony" at all, do you?

Oh I do.  It is your passive aggressive behaviour I have trouble with.   Well that and your constant character trait of claiming the opposite whenever you get caught out.

[grumbler]

No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.

Tough in many ways, yes.  But she was the daughter of one of the major nobles in the country.  She knew that she was going to be married off for dynastic reasons, not love.  Her dream that she would love the man she was going to be married to was always just a dream.  She did, however, have the example of her parents as people who were married for dynastic reasons and learned to love one another.

[crazy canuck]

I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.

No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.

Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.

[grumbler]

Oh I do.  It is your passive aggressive behaviour I have trouble with. 

  Maybe you do get irony, after all.   That's the most ironic statement yet!

Well that and your constant character trait of claiming the opposite whenever you get caught out.

I claim the opposite of what you tell me I think, yes.  But do keep it up.  It is most amusing.

[Valmy]

Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.

Of course, children have dreams that are not based on reality.  Her father's execution had nothing to do with her at all.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, go back and read the first few chapters of book 1.  It was set up as exactly her dream come true.  Irrc her mother even says so in the book.  The fantasy starts getting striped away though as it dawns on her that Joffrey isnt the Prince of her dreams (as he first appeared) and of course she descends into hell after her father is executed - due in part to her actions.

Of course, children have dreams that are not based on reality. 

Yes, of course. But hers were based on reality.

Her father's execution had nothing to do with her at all.

You really should go back and re-read the first book.

[Valmy]

You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.

[grumbler]

You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.

  Had Sansa never come south, Ned would have met the exact same fate.

[Valmy]

Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that 

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?

[grumbler]

Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that 

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?

They were not wasted, any more than time spent in university courses in the humanities is wasted. 

[Eddie Teach]

Wow it looks so sad seeing it posted like that 

Ah internet how many hours have I wasted?

They were not wasted, any more than time spent in university courses in the humanities is wasted. 

[Viking]

You really should go back and re-read the first book.

I have spent waaaay too much time dissecting that section.  I went over every sentence and put together an exact  time line and spent hours upon hours proving my case on the ASoIAF way back in the day.  So no I do not see the reason to debate this anymore or read that section a 500th time.  I suggest you go back and re-read the first book because it is clear.

  Had Sansa never come south, Ned would have met the exact same fate.

No

Sansa said

"I want Joffrey and I will give him a son with beautiful golden hair who will be the greatest king there ever was, as brave as a wolf and as proud as a lion"

followed by

"He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king"

at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

[grumbler]

No

Sansa said

"I want Joffrey and I will give him a son with beautiful golden hair who will be the greatest king there ever was, as brave as a wolf and as proud as a lion"

followed by

"He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king"

at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

No.

Littlefinger had, by that point, already guided Ned to the truth.  He had told Ned about the blacksmith's apprentice, had already set up Ned's arrest by lying to Cat about the dagger, and had already (apparently) made sure that the Cersei knew about Ned's investigations.  The most you can say is that Sansa's presence made Ned more cautious, but since Littlefinger had set this all up before he ever knew Sansa was coming south, you can be sure his trap didn't depend on her presence.

Ned died because that was the whole point of the whole exercise of him becoming the Hand of the King.

[Eddie Teach]

at which point Ned realizes that Joffrey is literal as well as a figurative bastard. Had he not realized this then. The next day he talks to Cersei about encouraging her to run. And before the ships are ready to sail three days later Robert is dead and Ned in the black cells.

If Sansa doesn't come south, Ned crowns Joffrey and is Regent.

Sounds more like Ned serves as Robert's Hand.

[Viking]

<snip>

the only way to win is to not play...