Game of Thrones begins....

[grumbler]

She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

In the dumbed-down version, she caused her father to be killed.  In reality, she just thinks that she caused him to be killed.  He was doomed from the start.

[Valmy]

So funny. I can't even imagine being disappointed by not having Sansa featured. On par with wanting more Bran chapters.

What can I say?  I like stories of the 'every man' (or little girl or whatever) in extra-ordinary circumstances.

She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

I disagree.  She went to the Lannisters after LF had already launched his coup, the only thing she accomplished was getting herself easily captured.  The fact that Martin left this out in the TV episode he wrote clearly shows this was not his intention in the books either.  Cersei only said it to Tyrion because she did not want to admit it was all LF's work and not her cleverness.

Secondly yes she is a noble (a completely powerless one...), but it is more about her reactions and capabilities that make her an every man story for me.  That is pretty much how I would have reacted in her circumstances...at her age probably a great deal worse.

[Valmy]

Yeah, the interesting thing about everyday people in extra ordinary situations is that they tend to rise to the occasion.  Sansa mainly just sulks along because the world isnt as she thought it was, or should be, for a Princess.  That is what makes her story line painfully boring for me.

That is an important part of growing up.  I certainly did my fair share of that.  And she does not just sulk.  She openly defies Joffrey at times and shows real strength.  I suppose you would have risked your life for that drunk knight?

She might break out of that mold in the next book.

I think she already has done that.

[The Brain]

Sansa haters are gonna hate. They are homosexuals.

[Josephus]

Going back to Cersei, though and the criticism that she just happened to be walking there. I agree the scene was highly contrived but I always took it that Cersei knew whom she was looking for and where to find him. True her character would likely send a minion to go fetch him, but in anycase I don't think she quite stumbled over the intestitines and found him.

[Berkut]

Huh.

It is funny seeing the complaints people make about Sansa, and who is making them.

CC, to me, is complaining that

1. Sansa is boring, and
2. The show dumbed down the books.

What is odd to me is that I look at the Bran and Sansa stories as the most intellectually non-lazy in the entire series - to really appreciate those stories requires one to actually think a bit about what is happening to these people, and why they are responding in the manner they are in a rather nuanced manner.

Sure, it isn't nearly as "cool" as Arya turning into an assassin...it isn't as exciting as Rob declaring himself King, or Jon fighting Wildlings or even Dany finding some handy dragons. And all those things are great fun.

But I think of the Sansa story as much more, well, mature, than many of the other arcs. I find it kind of funny that the same people complaining about the show or books being "dumbed down" are also complaining about the more sophisticated story arcs that are not so simplistically gratifying.

[garbon]

I assume you mean person? I don't recall saying anything about the show being dumbed down.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, the interesting thing about everyday people in extra ordinary situations is that they tend to rise to the occasion.  Sansa mainly just sulks along because the world isnt as she thought it was, or should be, for a Princess.  That is what makes her story line painfully boring for me.

That is an important part of growing up.  I certainly did my fair share of that.  And she does not just sulk.  She openly defies Joffrey at times and shows real strength.  I suppose you would have risked your life for that drunk knight?

She might break out of that mold in the next book.

I think she already has done that.

You were a Princess?

[crazy canuck]

She is a Princess who caused her father to be killed.  Not much of an every girl story there.

In the dumbed-down version, she caused her father to be killed.  In reality, she just thinks that she caused him to be killed.  He was doomed from the start.

It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?

[Valmy]

You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions. 

[crazy canuck]

You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions.

Yeah, but that is her character.  She was raised to belief those things were realistic expectations. And more importantly they were about to be realized.  Her character is believable because she reacts the way one would expect.  I just find it boring. 

[Valmy]

You were a Princess?

No but I had certain expectations on how life was supposed to be based on romantic childish notions.

Yeah, but that is her character.  She was raised to belief those things were realistic expectations. And more importantly they were about to be realized.  Her character is believable because she reacts the way one would expect.  I just find it boring. 

Well I don't.  I think it is quite interesting to see how she deals with reality and grows wise from it.  More to the point I see alot of myself in her and you don't and that's fair.

I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

[crazy canuck]

I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.

[grumbler]

It is amusing to watch you have to contort yourself into an argument that it is the books that are dumbed down.  You will do anything out of spite won't you?

  You don't get "irony" at all, do you?  I am not actually arguing that the books were dumbed down.  From what could they be dumbed down?

I am arguing that you don't seem to get the subtleties of the books or the show. For instance, the fact that Ned dies because Littlefinger wanted him dead.  That was his plan all along.  That was the whole purpose of having Jon Arryn murdered, and having Lysa send the letter to Katelyn, and leading Ned step-by-step to the truth about Cersei's children.  I'll admit that I am speculating that he was going to kill Joffrey all along to hide his (speculative) role in convincing Joffrey to betray the deal with Ned, but it all fits.  Someone convinced Joffrey to defy Tywin.

[Valmy]

I highly doubt that even if everything had gone according to plan it would really have been like how she imagined anyway.

If things had gone according to plan she would have been married to the Prince of her dreams and she would have become Queen after the long reign of a King who had been guided by the wise counsel of her father.

Martin did a very good job of setting the initial story book setting - and then utterly destroying it.

No she would have been married to Joffrey.  You are describing her fantasy scenario.  Even if Joffrey had been a decent enough person and not the psychopath he was, reality of being consort to a King was going to be tough on her.