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Game of Thrones begins....

Started by Josquius, April 04, 2011, 03:39:14 AM

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Martinus

#3660
Quote from: Berkut on April 02, 2013, 12:59:35 AM
Supporting his brother is completely standard in the hierarchical medieval pecking order. His older brother is his liege, therefore it is not per se immoral to support him if he rebels (the immorality of that rebellion is born by Robert, not by Roberts vassals). And rebellion is certainly morally justifiable under the proper circumstances.

I don't know enough about the feudal system of Westeros - and happy to defer to you if you can give conclusive evidence that what you claim is correct - but considering the fact that the feudal system of Westeros is based more on Norman England than France, it is likely that feudal law of Westeros states that a vassal of a traitorous lord is relieved of his duty to his immediate liege and instead owns direct allegiance to the king in the event of a rebellion.

And the part about "moral justification" of rebellion contradicts Stannis's "lawful neutral" stance - in Stannis's world, rebellion is never morally justified, simply because there is no authority that could grant such justification.

Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?

Valmy

Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 12:35:06 AM
I would say that three dragons are a much better ally than some cunt who can give birth to murderous shadows.

Still mourning Renly? :console:
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Neil

Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Solmyr

I'm really looking forward to the purchase of the Unsullied by Dany and all that follows. It's a very epic and emotional moment in the book, hope they do it well in the show.

Viking

Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.

I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Neil

Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Viking

Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.

No, he was burning men who [spoiler]were doing their best to sabotage the necessary task of hatching dragons and birthing the PWP to stop the rising of the others and white walkers.[/spoiler]
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Queequeg

Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Neil

Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:58:42 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.
No, he was burning men who [spoiler]were doing their best to sabotage the necessary task of hatching dragons and birthing the PWP to stop the rising of the others and white walkers.[/spoiler]
I don't think that was especially important.  The First Men did a good job of dealing with the bad guys without any of those things.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Queequeg

Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Neil

Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Queequeg

Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
He's Azor Ahai.  This is basic stuff.
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Neil

Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 09:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on April 02, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Isn't that the opposite of the truth?  The PWP is a reincarnation.
Do we know of who?  Do we feel that it's especially relevant to the war the First Men would have fought?
He's Azor Ahai.  This is basic stuff.
Says you.  I think they're two different things.  Azor Ahai might be one of a number of people, but there's really only one strong candidate for prince that was promised, and she's never really given any appearance of being the reincarnation of anyone.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

jimmy olsen

It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Martinus

Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 02, 2013, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 02, 2013, 11:00:49 AM
Besides, if Robert is morally justified to rebel against Aerys for burning his enemies alive, why aren't others morally justified to rebel against Stannis for the very same reason?
Aerys wasn't burning his enemies alive.  Aerys was burning his friends alive.
I'm pretty sure somewhere between first and second degree burns they turned into enemies.
Then they turned into corpses.  Nevertheless, Aerys was burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy son to stop kidnapping and raping their female relatives.

And Stannis is burning loyal men who just wanted him to get his crazy witch to stop destroying their holy statues and sending their sons into insane battles.

History is written by victors. If Stannis loses, it is really hard to see him depicted as anything else than a mad tyrant who blasphemes against the gods of old.