[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

Well, this is odd.

Allegedly, the PQ Minister for Montreal is saying that he may dismiss whoever is elected as Mayor for Montreal if they keep saying they don't support the Charter ... or am I reading this wrong?

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pq-to-mayoral-candidates-you-don-t-understand-montreal-1.1492043

He also suggests that the provincial government will be allowed to dismiss whoever is elected Mayor as not having a valid mandate.

Sounds bizzare. I'm willing to be persuaded it is a mis-reading.

It's certainly not what he said, he can't even do that unless they are accused of a serious crime.  What he told them was to basically "shut the fuck up".  See, Quebec can certainly criticize the Federal government, but no city should criticize the provincial government.  It is logical when you don't think about it.

I believe his exact word (I'm translating and I can't find the quote, give me some lattitude): "In the past, a great Montreal mayor had the right attitude* in the face of another division.  I would invite all candidates to reflect on this.  They can not pretend to speak in the name of all Montrealers, 1/4 of the anglophones support part of the charter, 1/3 of the allophones and 2/3 of the francophones support part of the charter".


EDIT:
I found the text, use Google translate

The relevant parts here:
«C'était un débat important pour son Île, sa Ville, mais comme il y avait une division et comme c'était une responsabilité du gouvernement du Québec, il s'est abstenu de rentrer dans le débat, a rappelé M. Lisée. Je ne dis pas (aux candidats de se taire), mais je dis qu'un des grands maires de Montréal, dans une situation similaire, avait pris une autre attitude. Que les gens en tirent les conclusions qu'ils veulent !».

«Les électeurs de l'Île de Montréal ne sont pas unanimes. Le quart des anglophones, le tiers des allophones, le deux tiers des francophones de l'Île de Montréal sont favorables à plusieurs des dispositions proposées par ce qui sera la charte, ce qui fait que le maire qui sera élu le 3 novembre ne pourra pas dire qu'il a un mandat des Montréalais»

[viper37]

I would further add that the fact our Canadians cannot grasp the difference between bigotry or racism and the legitimate desire of a majority to define, through its legally elected representatives, what the norm in social behavior should be for all citizens of the polity shows how profoundly alienated they've become under the aegis of their state religion.

lots of people don't get this.  As soon as you declare yourself nationalist, they consider you on par to the nazis.  Also, for many Europeans, at least the French speaking ones I know, it seems flag waiving americans are also on par with nazis and far right movements.  It's considered very rude to feel pride for your nation and your flag.  I got to say, many Quebec federalists are like that too.

[Agelastus]

Yup.

One is maximizing the amount of religious freedom without letting people unduly fuck over other people (the Jewish divorce thing).

Oh, no, it's about restricting religious freedom for some poeple becaus their behavior are considered undesirable in our society.

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

[Grey Fox]

Well, this is odd.

Allegedly, the PQ Minister for Montreal is saying that he may dismiss whoever is elected as Mayor for Montreal if they keep saying they don't support the Charter ... or am I reading this wrong?

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pq-to-mayoral-candidates-you-don-t-understand-montreal-1.1492043

He also suggests that the provincial government will be allowed to dismiss whoever is elected Mayor as not having a valid mandate.

Sounds bizzare. I'm willing to be persuaded it is a mis-reading.

Denis Coderre said that he would take the charter to court. That's what Lisee means when he says he won't have a valid mandate to do that since all the mayoral candidates have said they oppose the charter while about 1/3 of the city population is for it.

[Grey Fox]

You know I've been thinking that the apparent Quebec vs ROC issue over this, really isn't.

It's Anglo-saxon way of thinking hitting the wall of Latin thinking within the same country.

[Malthus]

Yup.

One is maximizing the amount of religious freedom without letting people unduly fuck over other people (the Jewish divorce thing).

Oh, no, it's about restricting religious freedom for some poeple becaus their behavior are considered undesirable in our society.

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

Yup. You don't see any Jews protesting against the legislation, because it doesn't impact religious freedom at all. According to the religion, it's bad to refuse to give a "get". Refusal is a "spite" thing, not a "matter of religious concience".   

[Malthus]

I would further add that the fact our Canadians cannot grasp the difference between bigotry or racism and the legitimate desire of a majority to define, through its legally elected representatives, what the norm in social behavior should be for all citizens of the polity shows how profoundly alienated they've become under the aegis of their state religion.

lots of people don't get this.  As soon as you declare yourself nationalist, they consider you on par to the nazis.  Also, for many Europeans, at least the French speaking ones I know, it seems flag waiving americans are also on par with nazis and far right movements.  It's considered very rude to feel pride for your nation and your flag.  I got to say, many Quebec federalists are like that too.

Plenty of Canadian flag waving nationalists about.

[viper37]

Yup. You don't see any Jews protesting against the legislation, because it doesn't impact religious freedom at all. According to the religion, it's bad to refuse to give a "get". Refusal is a "spite" thing, not a "matter of religious concience".   

The asshole who doesn't want to sign the divorce paper might disagree...

[viper37]

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

For the asshole, he doesn't see himself as acting contrary to his religion.  Others may see it that way, but I bet he doesn't.  The wife will claim the husband asks contrary to their religion, but it is not definitive.

[garbon]

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

For the asshole, he doesn't see himself as acting contrary to his religion.  Others may see it that way, but I bet he doesn't.  The wife will claim the husband asks contrary to their religion, but it is not definitive.

That seems unlikely. If your whole community says it is, I don't see why an individual would think it wasn't.

[Malthus]

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

For the asshole, he doesn't see himself as acting contrary to his religion.  Others may see it that way, but I bet he doesn't.  The wife will claim the husband asks contrary to their religion, but it is not definitive.

"Yeah, yer Honour, it's a matter of religion. I've been paying to the Devil to sew up that bitch's cunt every night since I found out she was a cheating whore, and I said hell will freeze over before I'll agree to the slut re-marrying. Are you gonna sit there and tell me praying isn't religous?!"

[viper37]

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

For the asshole, he doesn't see himself as acting contrary to his religion.  Others may see it that way, but I bet he doesn't.  The wife will claim the husband asks contrary to their religion, but it is not definitive.

That seems unlikely. If your whole community says it is, I don't see why an individual would think it wasn't.

Let's make it simple:
If by law, very clear&precise, it states that man and woman are equal, than woman goes to tribunal, she asks for divorce, she gets it, she gets half the husban's net worth since they're married, she gets pension for the kids and pension for herself to maintain her lifestyle if she was stay-at-home wife.  Government seize the income of the asshole to give it to the ex-wife.  Problem solved.  Same treatment for every asshole.

No lawyers, no costly procedure, no specificity for Orthodox Jews, everyone is treated the same.

If he's a good guy, he'll settle things with his wife first, give her the Get, agree on a pension, split the house, etc.  If he's an asshole, he get slam the same way the Ontarian asshole would.  But a muslim asshole would be slammed the same way as a catholic asshole or Jewish asshole.  That is not discriminatory.

Where as the Ontarian law is discriminative for some members of a particular faith treating them with exception.

[viper37]

"Yeah, yer Honour, it's a matter of religion. I've been paying to the Devil to sew up that bitch's cunt every night since I found out she was a cheating whore, and I said hell will freeze over before I'll agree to the slut re-marrying. Are you gonna sit there and tell me praying isn't religous?!"

Oh, I see it more that way:
"God united us, only God may divide us.  I love my wife and my kids, and I wish she would just come back home to me, her loving husband, and to take care of our sons who deeply miss her.  She has had a bad behavior of late, but I forgive her with all my heart."

Or something along those lines

They way you describe the law in the other thread, it was voted only to avoid Jewish vendettas in these specific cases.  So it was really aimed at correcting an issue with one particular cultural groups who consider women to be inferior to men.

Solve the bigger issue, eliminate the problem.  But it's a bigoted thing apparently to force other poeple into respecting our culture...

[Malthus]

Except that in the "Jewish Divorce Thing" in his religion he does not the freedom to refuse the Get; it's not impeding his religious freedom at all since he is acting contrary to his religion in the first place by refusing to produce it.

For the asshole, he doesn't see himself as acting contrary to his religion.  Others may see it that way, but I bet he doesn't.  The wife will claim the husband asks contrary to their religion, but it is not definitive.

That seems unlikely. If your whole community says it is, I don't see why an individual would think it wasn't.

Let's make it simple:
If by law, very clear&precise, it states that man and woman are equal, than woman goes to tribunal, she asks for divorce, she gets it, she gets half the husban's net worth since they're married, she gets pension for the kids and pension for herself to maintain her lifestyle if she was stay-at-home wife.  Government seize the income of the asshole to give it to the ex-wife.  Problem solved.  Same treatment for every asshole.

No lawyers, no costly procedure, no specificity for Orthodox Jews, everyone is treated the same.

If he's a good guy, he'll settle things with his wife first, give her the Get, agree on a pension, split the house, etc.  If he's an asshole, he get slam the same way the Ontarian asshole would.  But a muslim asshole would be slammed the same way as a catholic asshole or Jewish asshole.  That is not discriminatory.

Where as the Ontarian law is discriminative for some members of a particular faith treating them with exception.

The "get" has nothing to do with the financial aspects of divorce, which are handled, for Orthodox Jews and others, by the secular courts.

What failure to go through the "get" rigamarole means, is that under Orthodox Jewish law, the resulting secular divorce isn't religiously "valid", so the people in question cannot remarry in the faith. If you go through the "get" process as the religion itself states that you should, the secular divorce is also religiously valid and the people can re-marry as Orthodox Jews.

Failure to give the "get" is simply a spiteful refusal to process the paperwork yoiu are supposed to process. It is the equivalent of, if you are in a lawsuit, simply refusing to accept service of a claim and saying "he he, you can't go forward with your lawsuit, because I haven't accepted service". Only, in that case the courts have ways of dealing with your obstinacy (as they do now in Ontario, dealing with refusal to give a "get").

[Malthus]

"Yeah, yer Honour, it's a matter of religion. I've been paying to the Devil to sew up that bitch's cunt every night since I found out she was a cheating whore, and I said hell will freeze over before I'll agree to the slut re-marrying. Are you gonna sit there and tell me praying isn't religous?!"

Oh, I see it more that way:
"God united us, only God may divide us.  I love my wife and my kids, and I wish she would just come back home to me, her loving husband, and to take care of our sons who deeply miss her.  She has had a bad behavior of late, but I forgive her with all my heart."

Or something along those lines

It doesn't have that effect, because the lady in question is presumably going through a secular divorce process and refusal to give a "get" won't stop her - even if she is very religious.

In the Jewish community, such refusal is seen as spiteful - not that it will entice the lady back, or done in hopes that she will come back, but more that it will punish her for leaving, because the main effect is to prevent her from religiously re-marrying.