[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

People lying about their race for benefits isn't so odd, the "black" lady in the states for example. You set up a system to offer benefits to one group (as well intentioned as it is) and people will game the system.

Any system will be ruthlessly gained by some people.

The problem is with identity is if we start setting up standards for who is really indigenous or whatever, it starts getting really weird. Like suddenly you are posting Nazi-esque charts about who gets qualifies as a Jew or German or whatever.

Though with Indigenous nations don't we already kind of do that with people officially belonging to this group or that group? You shouldn't be able to just go around claiming you are part of such and such a group without that group signing off on it, right? Especially once you start fraudulently making specific claims about direct descent from real individuals.

In Canada though we have exactly that system: it's an Indian Status card.



While there's any number of complicating exceptions, at it's most basic you're entitled to have Indian Status if one of your parents has Indian status.

Now one thing you'll realize though is that means there's no minimum amount of "indian blood" one has to have in order to have status.  Which has both pluses and minuses to it.

Like I said - it's an interesting issue and the long article I posted goes into what that means.  For the lawyer Turpel-Lafond, there is one band that DOES say she is a member.  It's the band her husband belongs to, and her children belong to.  But the Federal government apparently does not recognize her as being status (Feds won't say directly, but read the article and it seems clear).  So should it be up to the Federal government to decide who has status and who does not?

[Admiral Yi]

My understanding is in the US it's the tribes who get to decide who is a member.  Which caused a bit of a stink years back when the Cherokee or some other tribe in Oklahoma wanted to kick out its black members.

Beeb: is there any money or other tangible benefit that comes with Indian status?

Obviously in the US tribal membership entitles you to a cut of casino profits, if any.

[Jacob]

It's pretty fraught - in Canada there is there are Status Indians - people recognized by the government. But you can also be First Nations without being a Status Indian. It used to be that self-identification was sufficient, but in recent times it seems to have moved towards community recognition.

I.e. it's not enough to refer to some vague "native princess" in the past, for example. And if you claim descent from a specific band, then you should be able to point out specific people in that band (or a credible enough story that aligns with the history of the band) who can vouch for you or the "Indianess" of your ancestors.

At least that's what it looks like to me up here in Canada. And it also looks like there's potential for politics and various shenanigans. It boils down to that the various First Nations and bands get to decide who belong to them, to verify who can credibly be said to be related to them (even if they don't belong directly), and who does not.

[HVC]

Ability to live on reserve and buy cheap smokes

There's cerusn hunting rights as well, but most of it is tied to living on the reserve IIRC

[crazy canuck]

It's pretty fraught - in Canada there is there are Status Indians - people recognized by the government. But you can also be First Nations without being a Status Indian. It used to be that self-identification was sufficient, but in recent times it seems to have moved towards community recognition.

I.e. it's not enough to refer to some vague "native princess" in the past, for example. And if you claim descent from a specific band, then you should be able to point out specific people in that band (or a credible enough story that aligns with the history of the band) who can vouch for you or the "Indianess" of your ancestors.

At least that's what it looks like to me up here in Canada. And it also looks like there's potential for politics and various shenanigans. It boils down to that the various First Nations and bands get to decide who belong to them, to verify who can credibly be said to be related to them (even if they don't belong directly), and who does not.

Roughly, but it gets complicated - and important now that several communities are becoming owners of significant assets and income streams.

[Admiral Yi]

Do they club the cerusns on the head or shoot them?  Have you ever eaten cerusn?

[Jacob]

My understanding is in the US it's the tribes who get to decide who is a member.  Which caused a bit of a stink years back when the Cherokee or some other tribe in Oklahoma wanted to kick out its black members.

Beeb: is there any money or other tangible benefit that comes with Indian status?

Obviously in the US tribal membership entitles you to a cut of casino profits, if any.

You didn't ask me, but the answer is yes.

There's a non-trivial amount of grants and other government support that are only available to First Nations, as well as employment opportunities. I believe there's some tax exemptions in play as well. And, of course, First Nations have financial and other interests in resource extraction and other projects (like pipelines) that crosses their land. How that money (or jobs, or other) get allocated depends on individual band governance, which has the potential to get spicy.

[HVC]

Do they club the cerusns on the head or shoot them?  Have you ever eaten cerusn?

Not sure .   At least for ontario they don't need a hunting licence or tags for game on treaty land.

[Jacob]

Roughly, but it gets complicated - and important now that several communities are becoming owners of significant assets and income streams.

Yup.

I expect that it's an area that has a non-trivial amount of potential for self-dealing, corruption, and vicious politics given the nature of the stakes, how power is distributed, and structure of the governance.

Some bands are very well governed and transparent (at least to their members), but my impression is that it is far from universal.

[Valmy]

So should it be up to the Federal government to decide who has status and who does not?

Depends on the context. If it is in the context of who gets benefits provided for, or required, by the Federal Government then yes. Otherwise what is even the point of the Federal Government recognizing or not recognizing people? I am sure it is an imperfect process that screws some people and benefits others but every process will do that.

Does that mean that you can't rightfully claim you are indigenous and show up for indigenous people day to represent your people or whatever? No of course not. It just means you cannot benefit from certain benefits which is limited to people who have gone through the BS of getting that certification, whatever that entails. That seems fair to me, not 100% just or perfect, but fair. The process has some transparency to it, potentially anyway.

Now one might justly and reasonably claim that the federal government having a system that recognizes who or who isn't indigenous is colonialist and they might have a point. But similarly any federal program that provides benefits is also colonialist and paternalistic and what have you. If you are going to opt out of the system, well then you opt out of the system. If you take a moral stand against the system, it makes no sense to then benefit from it. You can still be a professor in the colonialist university system, just not based on your indigenous identity.

Obviously this is not to say that problems with the Federal Government's system of recognizing or failing to recognize indigenous peoples shouldn't be addressed and improved if possible. Just because the system is never going to be perfect is no reason not to attempt to reach a more perfect status.

[Barrister]

My understanding is in the US it's the tribes who get to decide who is a member.  Which caused a bit of a stink years back when the Cherokee or some other tribe in Oklahoma wanted to kick out its black members.

Beeb: is there any money or other tangible benefit that comes with Indian status?

Well yes, otherwise it wouldn't be such a big deal at times, though just how much of a benefit it can be varies a fair bit.

Usually (but not always) being a status Indian means you are also a member of a specific Indian band.  Being a member of the band entitles you to the right to live on the reserve for free (subject to housing), entitles you to vote in band elections, and gives you a share of any band pay-outs (which if they exist vary A LOT).  Many bands will pay for their members post-secondary education. 

Being a status Indian entitles you to hunt for subsistence year-round, allows you to not pay income tax for any work done on a reserve (note: very few jobs on reserves), and as  Hillary said allows you to buy tobacco tax-free on reserves.

And as we've seen, some jobs may prefer First Nations candidates, or schools may give preferential admission to First Nations students.


(Note: although not preferred, the word Indian still has specific legal meaning and I've used it in some circumstances where the specific legal term seemed appropriate)

[HVC]

Point of correction, my name is Hilario, only Yi calls me Hillary

[Barrister]

Point of correction, my name is Hilario, only Yi calls me Hillary

I know - we've met before.

But who was I talking to though?

[HVC]

Fair enough

How many years ago was that now? Has to be almost 20, right

[Barrister]

Fair enough

How many years ago was that now? Has to be almost 20, right

Not quite so many.  I was already living in Yukon (which makes it at most 16 years ago), and I think it was 2008-2009 or so.