[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

I believe I saw something in the news where China suggested that Trudeau should not be so naive...

[PRC]

Going back to the Conservatives "climate" plans... Scheer says he would scrap the Liberals proposal to enact clean fuel standards if they do come into effect.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tasker-andrew-scheer-clean-fuel-standard-1.5204091

[Oexmelin]

Oil is sacred.

[Barrister]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conversion-therapy-criminal-code-1.5204919

Sometimes I really hate wedge-issue politics.

Latest example of this are various proposals to ban "conversion therapy" - efforts to undergo therapy to cure gayness.  Look, I fully recognize it is found to be ineffective and useless. But so are so many other kinds of "alternative" medicine, from homoeopathy to crystals, to chiropractic.  To the extent that if anyone trying to put someone through coercive conversion therapy surely existing laws against unlawful confinement and kidnapping are sufficient.

But if you have a willing participant and a willing therapist - doesn't your Charter s. 2(b) freedom of expression come into play here?

[Valmy]

I guess it depends on what about it would be illegal and how specific it would be. Plenty of people go to therapy for gender and sexuality issues so I don't know.

But hey none of my business I guess.

[Barrister]

I guess it depends on what about it would be illegal and how specific it would be. Plenty of people go to therapy for gender and sexuality issues so I don't know.

But hey none of my business I guess.

Hey I freely opine on US politics, so don't let the border stop you!

Yeah, I wonder if that would include any therapy with relation to transgenderism as well.  There, while I think there's not much evidence that gender dysphoria can be cured in adults, there's more debate when it comes to children, with some advocating for a therapy of "watchful waiting", while others feel that gender dysphoria in children should be 'affirmed' through HRT almost immediately.

[Grey Fox]

Gayness is not something that requires a cure.

[Barrister]

Gayness is not something that requires a cure.

Sure.

But we have treatments for all kinds of conditions that don't require a cure.

The question is, if you have a willing patient and a willing 'therapist', should there be a criminal ban on so-called conversion therapy?

[Valmy]

Gayness is not something that requires a cure.

Neither is having a dirty aura, but people pay so quacks can wave crystals at them.

[Grey Fox]

But that's different. There aren't active political parties looking into cleaning your aura. There aren't hundreds of religious zealots looking to destroy your way of life because of your dirty aura.

[Valmy]

But that's different. There aren't active political parties looking into cleaning your aura. There aren't hundreds of religious zealots looking to destroy your way of life because of your dirty aura.

But what if you are a religious zealot? What if you are a member of that active political party? You are not free to practice your shitty ideas and quackery?

I would be in favor of making it illegal for minors or something but if some religious zealot wants help praying away the gay with some nut then...can you really stop that? What are you going to do? Arrest him? And what would be the point?

[Barrister]

But that's different. There aren't active political parties looking into cleaning your aura. There aren't hundreds of religious zealots looking to destroy your way of life because of your dirty aura.

That's a very confused analogy.

This is Canada.  There are no political parties (not even Bernier's) that want to promote gay conversion.  In fact all parties respect gay rights.  The Conservatives have even dropped their token opposition to gay marriage.

There probably are 100s of religious zealots (in a population of 30 million) looking to destroy the gay way of life.  But there's lots of zealots out there that want to destroy capitalism, the patriarchy, eating meat, and what not.  As I said - if someone is kidnapping  gays to try and force-convert them, then we have lots of existing laws to deal with that situation.

But let's imagine a different scenario.  A kid grows up in a conservative evangelical church.  He feels attracted to other boys, but has been taught such attractions are wrong.  He wants to talk to his pastor, and his pastor wants to give advice maybe not so much on how to "cure" him, but how to deal with those feelings without acting on them.  Should this transaction be potentially criminalized?

[Grey Fox]

My analogy is fine.

Conservative parties are beholden to their religious supporters & while for now they have moved on from their gay-hatred towards a forced birth stance, it is but a victory away.

The RoC is 5 years behind the Americans, look at that for where things are going.

Anti-capitalism zealots have political parties & there are multiple laws, both criminal & civil, stopping them from exercising their destructive ideas.

I don't see why it's ok to protect capitalism but not gay kids & adults.

[Valmy]

Anti-capitalism zealots have political parties & there are multiple laws, both criminal & civil, stopping them from exercising their destructive ideas.

I don't see why it's ok to protect capitalism but not gay kids & adults.

I don't understand. There are laws that prevent them from forming an anarchist commune? Why? I mean I may think that anarchist communes are a stupid and bad thing but I certainly think people should be allowed to form them if they want to. Likewise I think being gay is fine and gay conversion is a stupid and bad thing but why make it illegal for somebody to do it if they want?

My main problem in the US is that these kinds of things get supported by generous tax breaks since they are "religious" and generally that is not the kind of social "benefit" I want religions getting tax breaks for doing. But church and state and all that.

[Oexmelin]

The question is, if you have a willing patient and a willing 'therapist', should there be a criminal ban on so-called conversion therapy?

The delicate issue here is how "willing" are those patients who are already placed in a position of vulnerability.

Which is why governments must offer resources in school, and to the general public, for young (and less young) LGBTQ people.