[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

No, I did not mean to suggest that it is a bonus tied to fund raising nor did i mean to suggest that there is a quota.  I believe that was Oex's contention.

Viper37's, I believe.

Speaking of Viper, I wonder how he feels about Bombardier now that they have secured the Delta contract. 

The Quebec government injected a fuckton of money to become shareholder of the plane division.
The Delta contract is not what is reported in the media because there are rebates of an unknown value.

I still think it was a bad deal from the Quebec government, because we took too many risks with not enough guarantees.

But now we wait of the Federal govt to see if they'll make a move.  At this point, they should give the momey, otherwise Bombardier will likely go bankrupt before delivering the planes.

And it has nothing to do with the other contract from Air Canada.

I am with you on that point.  Given the current share structure of the company, I am not sure why governments would inject one penny without demanding that all shareholders become equal voting shareholders rather than keeping the dual share structure which allows the family to control the Board.

[Grey Fox]

Because they are Liberal Party friends.

Saving Bombardier is needed but it doesn't have to be that way.

[viper37]

I am with you on that point.  Given the current share structure of the company, I am not sure why governments would inject one penny without demanding that all shareholders become equal voting shareholders rather than keeping the dual share structure which allows the family to control the Board.

once the family let go of its control, Airbus or Boeing will buy the company and move the HQ elsewhere.

[crazy canuck]

I am with you on that point.  Given the current share structure of the company, I am not sure why governments would inject one penny without demanding that all shareholders become equal voting shareholders rather than keeping the dual share structure which allows the family to control the Board.

once the family let go of its control, Airbus or Boeing will buy the company and move the HQ elsewhere.

Why is that necessarily so?  And by the way, why would you care?  I thought you said all the manufacturing jobs were elsewhere?

[viper37]

Why is that necessarily so?

Canadian, especially Quebec-based company don't have that big of an opportunity to grow.  Our fiscality is pretty regressive yet we don't get all the services we pay for, at the quality we should expect.
And we have a very small internal market, we must rely on exports, with the risks associated with currency fluctuation and foreign government protectionism.
Eventually, Bombardier's shareholders will want the corporation to grow bigger, there will be an offer to buy them out, hostile or not, and without the family's desire to keep business in Quebec&Canada, control will pass to another entity.

  And by the way, why would you care?  I thought you said all the manufacturing jobs were elsewhere?

The manufacturing jobs are elsewhere.  Canada does not use trains as much as Europe and Asia, so they moved their HQ in Germany.  The manufacturing of the parts is done in Mexico and China. 
Most of the final assembly is done in Thunderbay and La Pocatière, my home town, for the Canadian market.  With US rules, US plants make the final assembly for their trains, it's really hard to get a tiny piece of a US government contract as we did in the past, like the New York Metro. 
The accounting division is in India, it takes at least 3 months to get paid for small bills, even employees don't want to advance cash for small local purchases.

Now, Mexico is in trouble. They subcontracted their production to a local manufacturer who can't keep the pace either.  Thunderbay is in problem too.  And now apparently Bombardier has decided they would stop sending their engineers to Thunder Bay and instead repatriate part of the work here.
But that does not change the harsh reality, most of manufacturing jobs are and will be done elsewhere.

The management of the transportation division will stay in Europe for the time being, until such time as we see US&Canada financing huge train projects (ie, not tommorrow ).

What is left is the management of their aeronautics division.  This is in Montreal (Saint-Bruno, south shore) and part of the planes final assembly is done in Mirabel (north of Montral).   What's really at stake are the well paid management jobs of Saint-Bruno.   These are the ones that are at risks if Bombardier moves its HQ.

I hate to see the provincial government trying to make it sound like they want to protect the workers of La Pocatière and Mirabel with their various agreements and grants while in fact they only protect HQ jobs, the guys whose vote&money really matter to them.

However, I must be a realist: at this point, losing Bombardier's HQ from St-Bruno would be bad for the entire province, if not the country.
It's simply part of a bigger tendancy to see our corporations being bought and moved/dismantled elsewhere.  I don't think it's healthy for an economy to rely on foreign corporations for job growth, nor do I think they should be maintained on artificial breathing by a government.  It seems to me as more&more, there is no price being paid by shareholders for mismanagement and fraud.  You participate in electoral fraud, overcharge the government in public contract, engage in unfair commercial practice and we... well, we give you a slap on the wrist, tell you not to do it again, suspend your ability to contract on public work for 5 years, then reverse the decision after 3 months.  There is no incentive to be honest here, you make less money and there is barely no penalty for defrauding your govt.

In cases of mismanagement, if we look at the American govt helping GM, they took over the entire company, fired the inept leadership, cut high management bonuses and put decent people in place.  Imho, there was this analytic part missing from the Quebec deal.  the Liberals never evaluated the administrative capacitiy, or if they did, it was never made public.  We have no idea how and why it went wrong, what was under-evaluated, if it's a simple cash flow problem due to unforeseen circumstances or if there were huge mistakes done by Bombardier's leadership, the family or the administration they chose.

Now, as I said, the deal is done with the provincial government.  We won't see that money back.
The Federal government, even if it was the Conservative, previous agreed to invest in GM to save their skin and also helped finance Newfoundland fiasco because they refused to negotiate with Quebec.  Basically, my government favored Newfoundland over Quebec, helping them compete us on the hydro-electricity export marker.  I believe a Federal government should be neutral between its provinces, not favor one over the other.   If Quebec had been favored as much as the other provinces, there would be no independantist party here

Given these facts, given the fact the provincial government did put money in Bombardier, given what we will likely lose if the Feds do not intervene, than I think they should do it.
Maybe not the way Bombardier wants it.  I still won't like it.  But they have to do it.

[viper37]

New Brunswick court ruled in favour of Gérard Comeau, in a 2012 case.

Mr. Comeau was accused of illegally transporting alcool between provincial borders.
According to the court, article 121 of the 1867 Constitution prohibits any kind of limits to interior commerce.

Soon, I'll be able to import cheaper wine from Alberta while my government still denies me the opportunity of ordering decent wine on-line, even for delivery in its own stores.

One more step toward a better Canada

[Barrister]

PKP quits politics a little less than one year after becoming the PQ leader.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/parti-quebecois-pierre-karl-peladeau-announcement-1.3562533

Any thoughts Quebecers?

[Grey Fox]

It has destroyed his family life plus eventually he was going to have to sell his controlling shares of Quebecor, something he is not willing to do.

Something had to give, surprisingly he did not choose Power.

Last night, on Quebec's #1 talk/interview show, his (ex)wife, tv person by her own right, gave a very heartfelt interview on how his choice of becoming a political person affected her & her life. It was sad in many ways.

[crazy canuck]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though? 

[Barrister]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though?

Of course.  It's pretty much a 2-party system in Quebec.  The Liberals won't last forever.

The question was whether he was willing to do what was necessary to obtain power.  Like downplay independence.

[crazy canuck]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though?

Of course.  It's pretty much a 2-party system in Quebec.  The Liberals won't last forever.

The question was whether he was willing to do what was necessary to obtain power.  Like downplay independence.

So the answer is not exactly "of course" 

Was he going to hold on to the leadership of the PQ while he waited for the Liberals to implode?  Was he going to ever be electable in a general election?  At least two of the questions for which I don't think there is a very clear answer.

Just because there are only two main parties does not mean that the leader of the opposition necessarily has a realistic chance to become Premier.  Just ask all the the BC NDP leaders who never became Premier

[Grey Fox]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though?

I think so. Maybe not next election but a good campaign in 2 years could have meant a majority PQ in 6 years.

[crazy canuck]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though?

I think so. Maybe not next election but a good campaign in 2 years could have meant a majority PQ in 6 years.

Interesting.  Just not patient enough?

[Grey Fox]

Did he ever have a realistic shot at power though?

I think so. Maybe not next election but a good campaign in 2 years could have meant a majority PQ in 6 years.

Interesting.  Just not patient enough?

No, he didn't seem to be in an hurry to be Premier & anyway he didn't even get to be leader in an election. No, he's quitting politics well before the public got tired of him.

[Rex Francorum]

I think the PQ should just pick the number 2 from the last convention to avoid losing time and money but I understand the party members could not like it. By the way, from the potential candidates, my favorite is probably Alexandre Cloutier.