[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Barrister]

In any event, I can't believe people are actually defending someone who fought in a Waffen SS unit. I get babies tribalism and his strong feelings for Ukraine presently. But for fucks sake's folks, you're defending and justifying people who fought in an SS unit.

OK, so for starters I am not defending having Parliament give the guy a standing ovation.  Politically that was just dumb.

But yes I will defend Yaroslav Hunka.  It's not as if he had the option of joining the western allies.  The only ones coming along offering to hand Ukrainians a gun and a chance to fight the Communists was the SS.  The Soviet Union had just murdered millions of Ukrainians in the last 20 years.

Reportedly (and I'm not an expert, I'm going off of Wikipedia to be clear) the Galicia Division when formed had a couple of stipulations: that it would only be used to fight the Soviets (not the Western Allies), and that its units would be allowed to have Greek Catholic or Orthodox Chaplains (highly unusual within the SS to have chaplains at all).

Look, being a Ukrainian in WWII was like living through the trolley problem, or the Kobayashi Maru test - there are no good answers here.  Not all Ukrainian nationalist groups supported the Galicia Division, although many did.  But absolutely joining that unit to fight the Russians and maybe help set up an independent Ukraine was morally defensible decision.

[Sheilbh]

But also off Wiki (and what I've read people saying) they destroyed Polish villages, were also deployed to Yugoslavia where they were fighting Yugoslav partisans and helped putdown the Slovak rising, not just the USSR.

I fully accept that for Ukraine and the Baltics especially there were no good choices. But think we should probably still have a bit of a firewall around people in the Waffen SS.

[Barrister]

But also off Wiki (and what I've read people saying) they destroyed Polish villages, were also deployed to Yugoslavia where they were fighting Yugoslav partisans and helped putdown the Slovak rising, not just the USSR.

I fully accept that for Ukraine and the Baltics especially there were no good choices. But think we should probably still have a bit of a firewall around people in the Waffen SS.

OK, so the Polish villages were destroyed by police regiments that while notionally under the Galicia Division, were being commanded by German police.  Wiki also cites historian Timothy Snyder suggesting that many of those incidents were conducted by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, the military wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, who were NOT under German control.  (incidentally, Snyder has an excellent podcast on Ukrainian history which if you have any interest in the topic at all you should go listen to).

Actions in Yugoslavia and Slovakia were not against the western allies, so still in accordance with the original parameters of the group.

But again, there's a difference between "lauding as heroes" and saying that joining the group is "morally defensible".

[Grey Fox]

In any event, I can't believe people are actually defending someone who fought in a Waffen SS unit. I get babies tribalism and his strong feelings for Ukraine presently. But for fucks sake's folks, you're defending and justifying people who fought in an SS unit.

It's an interesting ethical dilemma that we usually don't find ourselves confronted by in here, the western border of the Western World. How do we deal with those that fought with our enemy of yesterday against our enemy of today when the roles were reversed?

[Sheilbh]

But again, there's a difference between "lauding as heroes" and saying that joining the group is "morally defensible".

Yes - but the reason we're talking about this is because he was invited to the Commons for applause and invited to a private reception with the PM and Zelenskiy (which is why I'm really not sure we can just say it was the Speaker). He was lauded as a hero in continuity with Ukraine's current fight - and that may be a view of some Ukrainians, which I can understand, but we shouldn't endorse it.

Fundamentally unless someone's Finnish, if we read "fought against the Soviet Union in WW2" we should probably have some follow up questions before they're invited to parliament or to meet foreign heads of state.

[Josephus]

On the context of our Ukrainian soldier. Wasn't he a child when he joined the unit?

If so of this had happened in the 21st century we would consider him a victim of the Nazi regime.

I find this APP/CPP discussion quite interesting. A facet of Canadian life and federal government that doesn't apply to Quebec.

He is 98 now.  He joined the unit in 43.  Making him 18 when he joined.

He joined at 17.  After seeing his teacher and half of his village getting deported by the Russians.

Not sure where you're getting that from. Also, the math doesn't work he was either 18 or 19 not 17.

In any event, I can't believe people are actually defending someone who fought in a Waffen SS unit. I get babies tribalism and his strong feelings for Ukraine presently. But for fucks sake's folks, you're defending and justifying people who fought in an SS unit.

I've consistently not justified him

[viper37]

Not sure where you're getting that from. Also, the math doesn't work he was either 18 or 19 not 17.

In any event, I can't believe people are actually defending someone who fought in a Waffen SS unit. I get babies tribalism and his strong feelings for Ukraine presently. But for fucks sake's folks, you're defending and justifying people who fought in an SS unit.

You have to understand the context of this region of Ukraine.  They were never part of Russia or the USSR.  They were part of Poland.  When the USSR invaded Poland, they saw their friends and their family get deported by Staline.  Years prior, they heard the stories about the famine in the neighbouring counties of Ukraine, created by the USSR.

The man's blog read like any Ukrainian resistant letters of the time.

He didn't enroll because he hated Jews.  He was part of the SS because foreigners weren't allowed to form battalions for the Whermacht.  His only other choice was the partisans. Which were cooperating with the SD.  Not much better.

You can read his blog here, with Google translate:
https://komb-a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2010/10/blog-post_4610.html


He did not deserve a standing ovation for sure.  But I don't see him as a war criminal simply for joining an army fighting against the USSR on his home soil.  It's nothing like the Charlemagne Division, or some of the other SS units.

After seeing his teacher, his friends, some of his family members leaving in trains to the east, I understand how he felt.

[Barrister]

You have to understand the context of this region of Ukraine.  They were never part of Russia or the USSR.  They were part of Poland.  When the USSR invaded Poland, they saw their friends and their family get deported by Staline.  Years prior, they heard the stories about the famine in the neighbouring counties of Ukraine, created by the USSR.

The man's blog read like any Ukrainian resistant letters of the time.

He didn't enroll because he hated Jews.  He was part of the SS because foreigners weren't allowed to form battalions for the Whermacht.  His only other choice was the partisans. Which were cooperating with the SD.  Not much better.

You can read his blog here, with Google translate:
https://komb-a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2010/10/blog-post_4610.html


He did not deserve a standing ovation for sure.  But I don't see him as a war criminal simply for joining an army fighting against the USSR on his home soil.  It's nothing like the Charlemagne Division, or some of the other SS units.

After seeing his teacher, his friends, some of his family members leaving in trains to the east, I understand how he felt.

This history of western Ukraine is pretty complicated.  Historically yes it had been part of Lithuania, then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but with the partition of Poland western Ukraine came under the control of Austria-Hungary.  Poland only regained control by 1919, 20 short years before the war.

Fascinating blog, been scrolling through it.  This one was I think the most popular so I clkecked on it first, and it kind of covers all of the basic points.

https://komb-a-ingwar.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post_21.html

By the way, he describes himself as 14 at Sept 1939, so would have been 17 when he joined the SS Galicia Division.

But yeah, he talks about how once the Soviets took over how many people were disappeared by the NKVD, how once the Germans took over the provisional Ukrainian government was sent to concentration camps, but generally they were able to talk freely amongst themselves, including on matters of politics.

Then comes 1943, as the Soviets appear set to return.  And he talks that although the OUN urged people to join the UPA, while the Ukrainian Central Committee urged people to join the Galicia Division.

BY the way - this kind of division has long harmed Ukrainian civil society.  The one absolutely amazing thing about this war is how it has largely unified Ukrainian society as well as the diaspora.

I don't see how you can read these blogs and condemn the man.

[Josephus]

I don't think anybody is condemning him. [We don't know his role in the war so presumption of innocence applies. Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment. Not only because of the Waffen SS but also because he's got nothing to do with the current war that's going on. He didn't fight against Putin's Russia but against a different enemy all together.

There are plenty of Canadians who were victimized by Nazi Germany and this is obviously an insult to them.

It was silly, and stupid, and I'm glad the speaker is resigning over this.

[viper37]

Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment.

We can all agree on that.

[Barrister]

Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment.

We can all agree on that.

Yes.

[crazy canuck]

When you're stuck between a rock and a hard place sometimes you pick the rock. Not laudable, but can somewhat be understandable.

But this guy not only picked the rock, he also said those were some of this happiest days - according to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.



 

[crazy canuck]

I don't think anybody is condemning him. [We don't know his role in the war so presumption of innocence applies. Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment. Not only because of the Waffen SS but also because he's got nothing to do with the current war that's going on. He didn't fight against Putin's Russia but against a different enemy all together.

There are plenty of Canadians who were victimized by Nazi Germany and this is obviously an insult to them.

It was silly, and stupid, and I'm glad the speaker is resigning over this.

The folks at the Simon Wiesenthal Centre are.  They are the ones who identified this as an issue. 

[mongers]

I don't think anybody is condemning him. [We don't know his role in the war so presumption of innocence applies. Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment. Not only because of the Waffen SS but also because he's got nothing to do with the current war that's going on. He didn't fight against Putin's Russia but against a different enemy all together.

There are plenty of Canadians who were victimized by Nazi Germany and this is obviously an insult to them.

It was silly, and stupid, and I'm glad the speaker is resigning over this.

Yeah, Geddy Lee's parents and their extented family for one.

If I'm remember that correctly.

[Barrister]

I don't think anybody is condemning him. [We don't know his role in the war so presumption of innocence applies. Just that, as others have said, honoring him with a standing O at Parliament was extremely poor judgment. Not only because of the Waffen SS but also because he's got nothing to do with the current war that's going on. He didn't fight against Putin's Russia but against a different enemy all together.

There are plenty of Canadians who were victimized by Nazi Germany and this is obviously an insult to them.

It was silly, and stupid, and I'm glad the speaker is resigning over this.

The folks at the Simon Wiesenthal Centre are.  They are the ones who identified this as an issue. 

Here's Simon Wiesenthal Centre's statement:

https://www.fswc.ca/news/fswc-appalled-by-standing-ovation-in-parliament-for-ukrainian-veteran-who-served-in-nazi-military-unit

Toronto (September 24, 2023) – Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center (FSWC) is deeply disturbed by the Canadian Parliament's recognition of a Ukrainian veteran who served in a Nazi military unit during the Second World War implicated in the mass murder of Jews and others. FSWC is further outraged that parliamentarians in the House of Commons gave a standing ovation to the former soldier on Friday. 

Yaroslav Hunka, a 98-year-old immigrant from Ukraine, was introduced by Anthony Rota, Speaker of the House of Commons, as "a Ukrainian Canadian war veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians" and "a Ukrainian hero and a Canadian hero," ignoring the horrific fact that Hunka served in the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS, a Nazi military unit whose crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented. 

FSWC issued the following statement: 

"The fact that a veteran who served in a Nazi military unit was invited to and given a standing ovation in Parliament is shocking. At a time of rising antisemitism and Holocaust distortion, it is incredibly disturbing to see Canada's Parliament rise to applaud an individual who was a member of a unit in the Waffen-SS, a Nazi military branch responsible for the murder of Jews and others and that was declared a criminal organization during the Nuremberg Trials. There should be no confusion that this unit was responsible for the mass murder of innocent civilians with a level of brutality and malice that is unimaginable. 

"An apology is owed to every Holocaust survivor and veteran of the Second World War who fought the Nazis, and an explanation must be provided as to how this individual entered the hallowed halls of Canadian Parliament and received recognition from the Speaker of the House and a standing ovation." 

With respect, no.  The Galicia Division has NOT been implicated in the Holocaust.  The SS as a whole, yes - but the Galicia division was quite distinct because it was staffed not by Germans but by Ukrainians.  The Centre wants to conflate anyone who served in the SS in any capacity as being equally responsible for anything the SS did as a whole.  I don't think that's fair.