Sovereign debt bubble thread

[Sheilbh]

except for those other 11 months, doesn't it? you'd get less money during those

The amount of money isn't the issue though

[Tamas]

except for those other 11 months, doesn't it? you'd get less money during those

The amount of money isn't the issue though

why not? I thought we established that this isn't an extra strain on employers, since they are just dividing the yearl wage by 14 instead of 12.
Which means that all one have to do is not live off all his pennies of the 12-parts scheme, and would end up with the same amount of saved money as the insta-sum he gets in the 14-parts scheme

[Sheilbh]

why not? I thought we established that this isn't an extra strain on employers, since they are just dividing the yearl wage by 14 instead of 12.

Exactly.

The ease for me isn't that I don't have enough money.  It's that it's easier for me to automatically receive less of a year and then receive it when there's a big gap between pay days and lots of extra costs (January-December) than having to consciously save up for it.  It's also more equally spread over the year rather than just after summer which is when people normally start saving for Christmas.  It's like (before it collapsed) Farepac or something.

Having a little bit less money over the other 11 months doesn't affect the easiness.  Also I've always had savings or overdraft but I'd quite like the security of knowing that I got double the normal amount in December just in case

Looking it up it's also common in some German states and statutory in the Philippines.  So I'd definitely guess it's a Catholic/Christian Democrat thing.

[Tamas]

So Yi is right then 

[Sheilbh]

So Yi is right then 

Basically.  The difference is I don't think paternalism's a bad thing.

[Tamas]

So Yi is right then 

Basically.  The difference is I don't think paternalism's a bad thing.

The older I get the more closer I get to agreeing with you, as I think people in general are stupid and ignorant.

But it is not a very nice take to have. Because paternalism means exactly like that - you deem your fellow citizens incapable of taking care of themselves in a proper manner.

[Sheilbh]

But it is not a very nice take to have. Because paternalism means exactly like that - you deem your fellow citizens incapable of taking care of themselves in a proper manner.

I count myself among my fellow citizens.  Like me, I imagine most of them don't struggle with Christmas because they'e got savings or credit.  But this just makes their life easier and provides a little peace of mind.  That's a good thing and not because we're stupid and ignorant.

[Admiral Yi]

The problem with paternalism is not the assumption that people are stupid, since most are.  It's how rational people are constricted in their choices as well.

[Sheilbh]

The problem with paternalism is not the assumption that people are stupid, since most are.  It's how rational people are constricted in their choices as well.

I disagree on both points.

Also people who declare themselves rational - contra everyone else - tend to be arrogant pricks and wrong.  They also tend to be libertarian.  That's not coincidental

[Tamas]

paternalism means, in both theory and practice, that citizens are -to a degree- children of the state.
That might be practical, but eventually a block for further cultural development. Just like it was pretty practical to have the Church install a yoke on the barbaric savages of the dark ages, but became quite the limiting factor for further development.

[Admiral Yi]

I disagree on both points.

Also people who declare themselves rational - contra everyone else - tend to be arrogant pricks and wrong.  They also tend to be libertarian.  That's not coincidental

You've already demonstrated that you're incapable of putting away a little each month for Chistmas spending you know is coming.  Don't know how we can take your opinion seriously after that.

[Syt]

After learning that not only in Portugal there is legal obligation to pay a month-worth sum of bonus money at the start of summer, and before Christmas to all employees,

That's quite common in continental Europe.  It exists in Austria for example. 

You also get tax breaks on the extra salaries.

That's as stupid as, e.g. giving bankers tax breaks on their bonuses.

They've reduced/removed the tax breaks for high earners in the latest tax package. Also, only 2x your normal monthly salary has tax breaks on them. E.g., in my old company, I would get the "normal" two payments (colloquially called vacation money and christmas money), and an additional month's worth from the company as corporate bonus. The first two (corp bonus, vacation money) had tax breaks on them, the last payment of these (christmas) would be fully taxed.

[Zanza]

After learning that not only in Portugal there is legal obligation to pay a month-worth sum of bonus money at the start of summer, and before Christmas to all employees, but also their constitutional court just decided that removing this was unconstitutional, I have come to fully support Germany in not being willing to accept run-away euro inflation to save these regimes.

That's quite common in continental Europe.  It exists in Austria for example.  Though I think most countries prefer a 13th month of salary - that's in Switzerland, Belgium and others.  My company helped work these out for expats and it just changes salary calculations so you divide a salary by 14 rather than 12.  It doesn't lead to someone being given a salary of, say £24k a year, with an extra £4k in Christmas and Summer payments.  Rather they're given £24k across the year over 14 payments.

The Constitutional Court ruling in Portugal was because the government abolished it for public sector workers but not private sector workers.  They held that that went against the principle of equality of treatment in Portuguese law. 

Having said that the Portuguese government's generally been pretty respected by Germany and others for their austerity measures.

It's not exactly unheard of in Germany either. I get 69% of my monthly salary extra in May and 55% extra in November, so I get a total of 13,24 monthly salaries. It's part of the union collective bargaining though, not state law. In April, we get the voluntary bonus from the company, which can be very little or up to a monthly salary depending on economic success. Unlike Austria, I have to pay full tax on that though.

[Sheilbh]

You've already demonstrated that you're incapable of putting away a little each month for Chistmas spending you know is coming.  Don't know how we can take your opinion seriously after that.

  I've said repeatedly that I do.  I just think this would be easier and give a bit of peace of mind.  I'd still save more over the summer just in case.

[Syt]