Sovereign debt bubble thread

[Martinus]

The 14-pay thing is the norm here. One at Christmas, one at the start of summer (used to be 18th July in commemoration of Franco's uprising against the Republic). As Sheilbh says, it's just another way of dividing your total salary.

if it just decreases your monthly wage in effect, than what's the point? If it does not decrease it, it is then a state-enforced competitive disadvantage for all affected employers.

Regardless, having perks which are constitution-guaranteed seem... very socialist

I guess the point is that people are used to getting money that way. Which should be neutral or next-to-neutral from the employer's perspective, no matter how you slice it. I can't see the reason for your gripe with it.

[Martinus]

After learning that not only in Portugal there is legal obligation to pay a month-worth sum of bonus money at the start of summer, and before Christmas to all employees,

That's quite common in continental Europe.  It exists in Austria for example. 

You also get tax breaks on the extra salaries.

That's as stupid as, e.g. giving bankers tax breaks on their bonuses.

[Iormlund]

if it just decreases your monthly wage in effect, than what's the point? If it does not decrease it, it is then a state-enforced competitive disadvantage for all affected employers.

Regardless, having perks which are constitution-guaranteed seem... very socialist

As far as I know, 14-pay scheme is not compulsory in Spain. It's just tradition. And it's origins are paternalistic, not socialist.

You also get tax breaks on the extra salaries.

We pay less taxes on those, but IIRC it's balanced with more on regular paychecks.

[Sheilbh]

As far as I know, 14-pay scheme is not compulsory in Spain. It's just tradition. And it's origins are paternalistic, not socialist.

Yeah.  I can't remember all the countries with it but it seemed to be a mostly Catholic/Christian Democrat style thing.

Regardless, having perks which are constitution-guaranteed seem... very socialist

  The perk isn't constitutionally guaranteed.  The government tried to abolish this statutory right for workers in the public sector.  The Constitutional Court said that they couldn't do that.  They could abolish it if it was for all workers.  There's nothing socialist about it.

[Admiral Yi]

The Constitutional Court said they couldn't do it but it's not constitutionally guaranteed?

[Sheilbh]

The Constitutional Court said they couldn't do it but it's not constitutionally guaranteed?

Yes.  Constitutional protections can be substantive (there is a constitutional right to a 13th and 14th month salary) or procedural (you can only abolish legal provisions in certain ways).  This is the latter.  The 14th month isn't constitutionally guaranteed.  The government couldn't abolish that statutory right of workers for just one class of worker.  In this case they couldn't change the law governing working conditions only for public sector workers.

If the government wants to abolish the 13th and 14th month they can, but they need to do it for all workers or it goes against the principle of equality at law in the Portuguese constitution.  Though obviously I don't know anything about the Portguguese that's what the news articles I've read on the subject say and it seems fair enough to me.

[Martinus]

Yeah. Imagine the congress ruled that black people (and only black people) can be denied entry into restaurants. That would be unconstitutional even if there is no constitutional right to enter restaurants.

[Admiral Yi]

If the ruling means Portugal is free to reduce public sector salaries then cut the smaller amount into 14 parts, I see no reason to criticize it.  But if the ruling means public sector salaries can't be reduced that's retarded.

[Sheilbh]

If the ruling means Portugal is free to reduce public sector salaries then cut the smaller amount into 14 parts, I see no reason to criticize it.  But if the ruling means public sector salaries can't be reduced that's retarded.

My understanding is that public sector salaries can be reduced - by normal process under Portuguese law - and the lower salaries would be divided into 14 parts.  Similarly they could abolish the 13th and 14th month for all workers, which would reduce everyone's salaries.

What they can't do is change the law to remove the 13th and 14th month from public sector workers alone.  That cuts the salary without following the legal process to do so and it goes against the principle of equality at law.

[Admiral Yi]

The right to have whatever salary you get cut into 14 parts instead of 12 seems like a fucking silly-ass right.

[Sheilbh]

The right to have whatever salary you get cut into 14 parts instead of 12 seems like a fucking silly-ass right.

Right is perhaps the wrong word - it's a bit freighted with meaning when discussing constitutions.  It's just part of their labour law that this is how salary is delivered.

Personally I'd love 13 month salary because December-January's a nightmare.  I've less need for the 14 month wage.

[Tamas]

Personally I'd love 13 month salary because December-January's a nightmare.  I've less need for the 14 month wage.

that doesn't make sense. If that "extra month" is coming down from the other 12, in terms of averages, then what is the difference between not spending every single penny you have when you have 12 payments, and when you get one extra near christmas?

[Sheilbh]

that doesn't make sense. If that "extra month" is coming down from the other 12, in terms of averages, then what is the difference between not spending every single penny you have when you have 12 payments, and when you get one extra near christmas?

It makes life easier

[Tamas]

except for those other 11 months, doesn't it? you'd get less money during those

[Admiral Yi]

that doesn't make sense. If that "extra month" is coming down from the other 12, in terms of averages, then what is the difference between not spending every single penny you have when you have 12 payments, and when you get one extra near christmas?

It's based on the feudal/paternalistic notion that employees are all children and will drink up their paychecks as soon as they get them.  With 14 payments they get to go on extra-long benders in the summer and the winter.