Hungarian Politics

[Admiral Yi]

Not really. I briefly worked in the auto industry. I remember a lot of parts manufacturers having plants in Slovakia. I can't remember the specifics of the how and why.

Sorry, I meant the trend about hard right EV only solution.

[Tamas]

There is going to be an effective amnesty of arrested human traffickers in Hungary. A government spokeperson has effectively confirmed that it is done to spite the EU for not sending money. To be more precise "we are not receiving funding to help protect EU borders but we get punished if our prisons are overcrowded, so we are letting them go".

[Tamas]

As the latest indicator of Russification of Hungarian politics (as if the direction hasn't been obvious from around 2011), recently more than half a dozen far-righters sentenced for terrorism have been granted amnesty by the President.

Most notable is their group's leader, Budahazy, who has been a leading/martyr personality of the far right since the riots of 2006, and who left prison like this:



Him and his buddies were sentenced for their acts as part of their "Hunnia" group. Formed during the unrest of 2006 they wanted to forment further unrest and the collapse of the government (and the democratic system in general) so they did stuff like Molotov-cocktail attacks against the homes of members of the governing party (at the time the Socialists).

For me the only question is whether this amnesty is to prevent Budahazy from talking about Orban's role in 2006's chaos (there is no evidence but for me it seems very likely he was working his way toward a coup until a brutal police dispersion of his rally ended his hopes), or if he and his henchmen will be used in suppressing opposition demonstrations and the like.

The latter wouldn't be surprising, during smaller demonstrations (held on private property such as construction sites so there was legal pretext) it has been routine for police to stand aside while private security personnel would beat up protesters. So I am expecting "counter-protesters" to show up if any sizeable protests ever get started.

[Josquius]

You know what I find really depressing about this- that there are some people who will see this and won't think "Man that guy is sad" but rather "He's on a horse leaving prison. How fucking awesome. He's da man. That shows 'em"

[Tamas]

The Budapest police has been giving out Scotland Yard vibes lately. The ongoing (although I think decreasing in size) student protests for better pay and conditions for their teachers has been encountering increasing police pushback since they started visiting near Orban's office. So we have had the wonderful optics of high school students and younger being teargassed and such.

Then there was the Europa Leauge final in the city yesterday and the Sevilla fans wreaked havoc on the streets, with no police in sight.

But today some kids after the latest protest "loitering aimlessly" (to quote the police) have been... IDK how do you call it in English when a police officer stops you to check your identification papers?

Apparently there were at least twice as many policemen as protesters. I guess they kept them in reserve for this, that's why they let foreign hooligans ransack the city.

[Sheilbh]

Although on Scotland Yard police in Britain don't use teargas or water cannons (or other "military style" equipment) - it's unlawful in Britain (but used in Northern Ireland). As mayor following the riots Boris Johnson famously bought some water cannon vans that weren't legally usable, Theresa May declined to change the law so Sadiq Khan had to sell them for scrap

Always makes a lot of European or Northern Irish policing of protests/riots looks extreme. But I'm not sure if the standard here of kettling, baton charges and riot shields is better?

It's also just the insanely disparate responses. My theory was always that they basically don't mind going in heavy against protests that are unlikely to offer much resistance (Sarah Everard) but are generally more hands off on protests that are large enough (or have enough men in them) to present a risk. That doesn't explain the Just Stop Oil response which seems daily, with the police basically leaving it to the public (not great) which seems particularly weird when you have police in Germany, say, conducting raids across the country on the German equivalent of Just Stop Oil on suspicion of "forming or backing a criminal group".

I feel like you can have an argument over hands off or strong policing of protests. But maybe worse than either is the UK police's arbitrary, who knows approach.

[Tamas]

I try to resist drawing conclusions because what do I know of policing, but it does give the optics of British police opting not to stand up to groups where they might face resistance that'd be bothersome to deal with (football hooligans, attention whore middle class climate protesters).

[Tamas]

By the way, some interesting tidbits regarding the student/teacher protests:

As I understand both in Romania and Czechia there have been much larger protests for the same reasons and with decidedly better results. Very clearly shows the apathy of Hungarian society. I mean, hell, on protests for teacher salaries, the vast majority of the crowd are students, not the teachers themselves.

Also after the election last year, education has been transferred under the Ministry of Interior (along with healthcare and a bunch of other stuff Orban doesn't give a toss about and have already been assigned there), led by a former high-ranked police officer who is almost certainly a major figure of the 90s organised crime world of the country.

And I guess his response to the teacher protests (and in some marginal cases, strikes) was quite predictable: they are introducing much stricter rules and processes for teachers to follow in terms of managing their working hours, and if I understand correctly, they'll be competing against each other within a school for performance review rankings and thus bonuses/salary bands, sort of like salesmen would. In other words, they are being punished for being uppity. But that does not have broken through their apathy.

The country is a lost cause.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. It just feels very inconsistent. Although I would be really interested to see arguments on either side of the "military style" equipment/water cannons/tear gas v kettling, baton charges etc. My guess is that "military style" means you'll probably harm more people and with more collateral damage, but its likely that the actual level of harm is lower while baton charges etc will affect fewer individuals but is likely to cause them more harm? But I'm just guessing.

I'm not sure on hooliganism because from my experience football is generally pretty well policed. Though my experience is small - only a couple of games and Premier League (also the flat I ended up purchasing isn't next door to Millwall so I can't even comment on that ). But obviously the Euro final was a disaster. The report on that has come out and is really grim - mainly because it could have been so much worse. From reading that it feels like the problem was that, despite many warnings, the police didn't anticipate a problem so they never actually had control. There were never enough police in the area to control a crowd of that size in a hands off or confrontational way. And I think the decision to not have fan zones dispersed around the city because of covid - which was vetoed by Hancock in health - despite it being safe enough to have people in a stadium was a huge mistake.

I've been on loads of protests and none of them have ever really had an issue with the police, although on almost every one they do end up taking away the Class War guys because they will inevitably try to smash in the windows of an estate agent at some point on the protest

But despite all the powers they have and all the panic of "protest being abolished" etc etc it seems as you say. They'll clear the vigil for Sarah Everard, or Republic protesters, but let the Just Stop Oil guys block roads with 20 people as if they were a protest of 20,000. It's very inconsistent.

[HVC]

What are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.

[Sheilbh]

What are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.

I'm not an expert on this but I think there was a freedom of information that revealed police forces in England had settled something like £10 million per year of civil claims in the last four years. I think it's down in recent years. That doesn't include the legal cost so it's purely the compensation costs. That's also separate from making a complaint to the IOPC (which is basically a police ombudsman in England and Wales), they can't make financial awards but can rule on complaints about police misconduct.

From memory you can't sue the police for a failure/omission, but lots of police powers are based on reasonableness plus their procedures or when they have police powers. So you can sue them if they don't actually have the power in law to police you, if they don't follow the right procedure (especially stop and search), for assault if their use of force was beyond what was reasonably necessary, for wrongful arrest etc - all of that is police misconduct or brutality.

[HVC]

What are the implications for cops if the mess someone up in the uk? Are they liable? If so it could go a long way to explaining why they won't go after more dangerous groups. Not worth the legal headache.

I'm not an expert on this but I think there was a freedom of information that revealed police forces in England had settled something like £10 million per year of civil claims in the last four years. I think it's down in recent years. That doesn't include the legal cost so it's purely the compensation costs. That's also separate from making a complaint to the IOPC (which is basically a police ombudsman in England and Wales), they can't make financial awards but can rule on complaints about police misconduct.

From memory you can't sue the police for a failure/omission, but lots of police powers are based on reasonableness plus their procedures or when they have police powers. So you can sue them if they don't actually have the power in law to police you, if they don't follow the right procedure (especially stop and search), for assault if their use of force was beyond what was reasonably necessary, for wrongful arrest etc - all of that is police misconduct or brutality.

So if you push a Cop and he hits you with the ol' baton they could be sued for unnecessary force or brutality? Protester might not win, but it's still a pain for the force and officer. I can see where this leads, rightfully or wrongfully, to more engagement against a peaceful protest or one with less of a chance of getting violent. Leave the nutter oil people alone, and let the civilians pull them off the road (although I recommend trucks with cattle catchers ).

[Sheilbh]

It might also explain the preference for baton charges etc v water cannons or tear gas or why the last two are basically illegal in GB.

[Tamas]

I've been on loads of protests and none of them have ever really had an issue with the police, although on almost every one they do end up taking away the Class War guys because they will inevitably try to smash in the windows of an estate agent at some point on the protest

 

[Admiral Yi]

I had to look up kettling.