Libyan Civil War Megathread

[Josquius]

The lack of news despite the major action on the ground annoys me.

[CountDeMoney]

Tripoli needs an earfquake or a hurricane.

[Sheilbh]

As for democratizing, I was wondering about this in case of Afghanistan as well: why are we trying to enforce the exact kind of democracy the west had, which it had after half a millenia of vastly different route of advancement than them muslims? Why not try to come up with something like, say, a tribal federation, where the de facto senate would be tribal delegates or somesuch?

This has happened in Somaliland.  They've an elected House of Representatives - though the three parties are associated with clans - and a House of Elders which is indirectly elected from the clan leadership.

They've had a number of free and fair-ish elections and a peaceful transfer of power from one party to other in both the House of Representatives and President.

I'm actually reasonably hopeful with Libya.

[Caliga]

The lack of news despite the major action on the ground annoys me.

Supposedly Tripoli has been completely conquered as of yesterday.  I'm sure there will be further guerrilla activity there, though.

[Zanza]

As for democratizing, I was wondering about this in case of Afghanistan as well: why are we trying to enforce the exact kind of democracy the west had, which it had after half a millenia of vastly different route of advancement than them muslims? Why not try to come up with something like, say, a tribal federation, where the de facto senate would be tribal delegates or somesuch?

Does the West play a big role in how Lybian institutions are set up now? I thought it was mainly sympathy and in some cases support, instead of active "nation building".

[Tamas]

As for democratizing, I was wondering about this in case of Afghanistan as well: why are we trying to enforce the exact kind of democracy the west had, which it had after half a millenia of vastly different route of advancement than them muslims? Why not try to come up with something like, say, a tribal federation, where the de facto senate would be tribal delegates or somesuch?

Does the West play a big role in how Lybian institutions are set up now? I thought it was mainly sympathy and in some cases support, instead of active "nation building".

I am not sure how Lybia will go. But public 1st world opinion will probably consider anything but western democracy as sub-optimal, and this should not be encouraged by politicans. A liveable regime with free trade with Europe would be well enough, as free trade equals free flow of culture and information, which will help immensely the advancement of society.

[Jacob]

I am not sure how Lybia will go. But public 1st world opinion will probably consider anything but western democracy as sub-optimal, and this should not be encouraged by politicans. A liveable regime with free trade with Europe would be well enough, as free trade equals free flow of culture and information, which will help immensely the advancement of society.

I doubt it.

If the Western public had been fed a steady diet for years of "we're sacrificing blood and money to bring democracy to the Libyans" and if there'd continuous political posturing about less-than-perfect democracy being unacceptable on an ideological level, then maybe that'd be what the public would expect and demand.

But as it stands, I'm pretty sure that the public - insofar as it cares about Libya at all - will mostly be happy with "we helped them out a bit, the system is measurably better though not perfect and we get some actual goodwill from what we did."

I mean, of course there'll be some die-hard anti-establishment types who'll go on about imperialism and so on, but they're never happy anyways. There'll also be some people who'll be unhappy because their primary objective is to bash someone domestically, but that too is inevitable.

[The Brain]

Let's see if they do manage to find some WMD's in Libya. Fool me once, shame on you...

[jimmy olsen]

Shocking!
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/29/libya.algeria.gadhafi/

Gadhafi family members in Algeria, ambassador says

By the CNN Wire Staff
August 30, 2011 -- Updated 0104 GMT (0904 HKT)

(CNN) -- The wife of fugitive Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi, three of his children and some of his grandchildren arrived in Algeria on Monday morning, Algerian diplomats said.

Mourad Benmehidi, the Algerian ambassador to the United Nations, said he relayed the news to Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon earlier Monday. Benmehidi said his country granted entrance to Gadhafi's wife, Safia, his daughter, Aisha, sons Hannibal and Mohamed and their children on "humanitarian grounds."

"We made sure the international community has been informed," said Benmehidi.

The ambassador said he did not know whether Moammar Gadhafi was expected to seek entry into Algeria and claimed none of the Gadhafis were subject to U.N. Security Council sanctions.

In fact, U.N. Security Council Resolution 1970, passed on February 26, includes the names of all three Gadhafi children who are now in Algeria as being subject to a "travel ban" because of their "closeness of association with (the) regime."

The U.N. ban requires "all member states" to prevent them and others listed from entering their territories, unless there is some special circumstance that the council agrees warrants an exception. The resolution also allows the nation -- in this case, Algeria -- to determine "on a case-by-case basis that such entry or transit is required to advance peace and stability (and) notifies the committee within 48 hours after making such a determination."
Gadhafi family members in Algeria
Meet the Gadhafi family
What's next for Libya?
Captives executed in Libya
RELATED TOPICS

    * Moammar Gadhafi
    * Libya
    * Algeria

News on Monday of the Gadhafi relatives' departure from Libya came the same day that a senior rebel commander reported that Khamis Gadhafi, a son of the Libyan leader and military commander in his regime, had been killed Sunday night.

Mahdi al-Harati, the vice chairman of the rebels' Military Council, the military wing of the National Transitional Council, said Khamis Gadhafi died in a battle with rebel forces between the villages of Tarunah and Bani Walid in northwest Libya.

Khamis Gadhafi, who was a senior military commander under his father, was taken to a hospital where he died from his injuries, said al-Harati. He was then buried in the area by rebel forces, al-Harati said.

His father, Moammar Gadhafi, meanwhile, is still wanted by the International Criminal Court in The Hague on charges of war crimes. So, too, is Moammar's son Saif al-Islam Gadhafi and his brother-in-law and intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Sanussi.

But should any of those three get to Algeria, there is no guarantee they would face trial. Algeria is not a signatory of the Rome Treaty that established the International Criminal Court.

The longtime ruler's whereabouts have been a mystery since the rebels overran Tripoli last week. Rebel commanders said Gadhafi was not found in the network of tunnels beneath his Bab al-Aziziya compound, and reports that he had been holed up in an apartment block nearby or at a farm near Tripoli's airport didn't pan out.

The National Transitional Council, which is forming a provisional government in Tripoli since overrunning the city last week, has not yet confirmed the news about Gadhafi's family members, spokesman Mahmoud al-Shammam told CNN. But he said that if true, the NTC would demand the return of the family members. He promised they would receive a fair trial.

The rebels had previously speculated that Gadhafi could be trying to reach Algeria or Libya's southern neighbor Chad, both countries with which his government had close ties.

"Those are the only two neighboring countries that have been showing support for him," Guma El-Gamaty, an NTC official based in Britain, said last week.

In London, Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office said the fate of Gadhafi's relatives "is a matter for the NTC." In Washington, White House spokesman Jay Carney told reporters the United States has no indication Gadhafi has left Libya.

U.S. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland added that what's important is that Gadhafi and his relatives, wherever they are, are held accountable.

"We want to see justice and accountability for Gadhafi and those members of his family with blood on their hands and those members of his regime with blood on their hands," Nuland said. "But it'll be a decision of the Libyan people, (as to) how that goes forward."

Algeria, which the CIA World Factbook says has a population of 35 million, repeatedly has been mentioned as a possible destination for Gadhafi and his family. Guma El-Gamaty, the Britain-based coordinator for Libya's National Transitional Council, said earlier this month that Algeria and Chad "are the only two neighboring countries that have been showing support for him."

Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, noted similarities between Libya under Gadhafi and Algeria, with a largely oil-driven economy and strong central government under President Abdelaziz Bouteflika "that is concerned with popular uprisings."

"My sense is that Algeria was supportive, in part, because they had worked out a modus vivendi (or, practical compromise) with Gadhafi and they feared the contagion of mass popular unrest in the region," Alterman said.

Yet while many nations in Africa had determined "it was easier to manage (Gadhafi) than to defeat him," especially when he shared some oil-derived wealth around the continent, Alterman said he finds it unlikely any nation will now risk international scorn by taking in the embattled leader himself -- or that Gadhafi would ever leave Libya.

Of Gadhafi's family members now in Algeria, Aisha Gadhafi was a good will ambassador for the U.N. Development Program and has kept a low profile during the six-month revolt against her father. She had been named to the position in 2009 to address HIV/AIDS and violence against women in Libya, but U.N. officials terminated her position as Gadhafi unleashed his military on anti-government protesters early in the conflict.

She is due to give birth in early September, sources close to her family told CNN.

Hannibal Gadhafi is a headline maker. He has reportedly paid millions of dollars for private parties featuring big-name entertainers including Beyonce, Mariah Carey and Usher. Several of the artists now say they have given the money back.

Rebels who picked through his seaside villa on Sunday also introduced CNN's Dan Rivers to his family's badly burned former nanny, who said she had been doused with boiling water by his wife, model Aline Skaf, when she refused to beat one of their crying toddlers.

The nanny, Shweyga Mullah, is covered with scars from the abuse, which was corroborated by another member of the household staff.

Hannibal was also accused of a string of violent incidents in Europe, including beating his staff and his wife. Charges were dropped in the case of his staff, and Skaf later said her broken nose was the result of an accident.

In another high-profile episode, Hannibal was stopped after driving his Ferrari 90 mph the wrong way on the Champs-Elysees in Paris. He invoked diplomatic immunity.

Mohamed Gadhafi, meanwhile, was one of three Gadhafi sons who had been reported captured as the rebels overran Tripoli last week. But the rebels said he had escaped the next day.

[Caliga]

al-Arming.

[Sheilbh]

I am not sure how Lybia will go. But public 1st world opinion will probably consider anything but western democracy as sub-optimal, and this should not be encouraged by politicans. A liveable regime with free trade with Europe would be well enough, as free trade equals free flow of culture and information, which will help immensely the advancement of society.

People don't care about the rest of the world.  Also in Libya we've only expended treasure (the Libyans expended the blood) which makes it more abstract to most people who barely noticed the war was going on, grudgingly supported it because we generally support our boys and the decision had been made.  Now the war's more or less finished it will be greeted with broad indifference as will the rest of Libya's future.  Libya as a war will be like Yemen as an Arab uprising: confusing, protracted and easily ignored.

Attentive British people who read the Telegraph will probably add getting rid of Qadafi to their list of things 'the world should thank us for, but won't' (top of the list is usually abolishing slavery or Indian railways) but that'll be about it in terms of anyone caring.

[citizen k]

Westerwelle Faces Isolation Within His Party

BERLIN (Reuters) - Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle faced ridicule across Germany and even within his own party Friday for stating that it was chiefly U.N.-imposed economic sanctions that led to the downfall of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi.

In remarks this week, Westerwelle stressed that it was the sanctions -- rather than rebel forces and NATO air support-- that brought down the Libyan strongman. His comments were trashed in Germany, even by some in his Free Democrats.

"The sanctions and the international isolation were of great importance -- that is what prevented Gaddafi's regime from getting fresh supplies," Westerwelle said.

Germany angered its allies in March for abstaining in a U.N. Security Council vote authorising military enforcement of no-fly-zone over Libya.

Westerwelle had been on the defensive for that decision ever since with critics accusing him and Chancellor Angela Merkel of breaking ranks with partners in NATO for domestic political reasons -- especially regional elections in March.

Even during the months'-long NATO campaign in Libya, Westerwelle expressed doubts about the use of force -- which can be a popular stance among generally anti-war Germans.

But that backfired this time. His party was defeated in the elections and opinion polls showed many were concerned about Germany isolating itself over Libya.

UNPOPULAR, CONTROVERSIAL

Westerwelle has been the most unpopular foreign minister in the country's post-war history. His FDP party has plunged in the opinion polls and he was forced to give up the party's leadership this year.

Westerwelle, Germany's first openly gay minister, also ran into criticism for conflict of interest for taking his partner, a German businessman, on several of his official trips abroad.

Westerwelle said this week he believed that abstaining from the Security Council vote was still the right decision to make and added he would do it again.

Friday, amid growing media criticism of Westerwelle, Merkel's spokesman Christoph Steegmans supported Westerwelle's view of events. He said at a news conference that Merkel is "in complete agreement with the Foreign Minister's comments."

When later asked if Merkel specifically backed Westerwelle's remarks on the sanctions being decisive, Steegmans added: "Things that are self-evident do not need to be expressed."

Steegmans added: "There is no foundation to all the talk about Germany going off on its own or being isolated."

He also pointed out that Germany, which had chaired the U.N. Security Council earlier this year, played a vital role in getting sanctions imposed against Libya.

Westerwelle was nevertheless assailed by a former leader of his own Free Democrats, ex-Interior Minister Gerhard Baum: "Westerwelle's abstention doctrine has caused major damage. Now his constant harping that it was sanctions that brought down the regime sounds like an arrogant know-it-all."

The conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung quoted a member of parliament in the ruling centre-right coalition saying Westerwelle's comments were "a huge embarrassment."

Ruprecht Polenz, chairman of the parliament's foreign policy committee and a leader in Merkel's CDU, also said it would have been wiser if Westerwelle had not made those remarks.

"One should have said 'fortunately our concerns turned out to be wrong and we're delighted about that -- and we're happy for our allies and obviously happy for the Libyan people'," Polenz told Deutschlandfunk radio Friday.

BERLIN, GERMANY - AUGUST 29: German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle (C) and French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe (across) hold talks on a boat on the Spree river on August 29, 2011 in Berlin, Germany. The two men discussed stability of the Euro and the current situation in Libya, among other matters. Westerwelle is currently under increasing pressure from ranks within his own party, the German Free Democrats (FDP), many of whom see him as a liability following Westerwelle's reluctance to acknowledge the role of NATO in helping the rebels in Libya defeat forces loyal to Moamer Gaddafi. (Photo by Sean Gallup/Getty Images)

[Sheilbh]

That article seems mighty tendentious.  My understanding was that Westerwelle had already had to stand down as party chairman, that the FDP have been barely polling above 5% since the election and that his main purpose now is to make Nick Clegg the face of popular European liberalism.

[Neil]

Westerwelle, Germany's first openly gay minister

I think I've discovered the problems.

[derspiess]

I mean, of course there'll be some die-hard anti-establishment types who'll go on about imperialism and so on, but they're never happy anyways. There'll also be some people who'll be unhappy because their primary objective is to bash someone domestically, but that too is inevitable.

Then there are those of us who don't understand why we're dumping so many $$ on adventures like this when we're flat broke.  I still can't figure out how it advanced the US's national interest.