Game Changing Weapons of the Third Reich

[Neil]

The answer is:  A good dreadnought battleship.

Do you not believe?

[jimmy olsen]

I guess my objection is that it presupposes that the Allies don't bust out the Meteor by the thousands, that the Germans find the raw materials to produce teh alloyws they need, that nobody in the west notices that the Germans are getting ready to roll out thousands of jets, etc.

Didn't the Meteor have a short range? How's it going to help the bombers over Germany?

EDIT: Tainted by Tim

[jimmy olsen]

The answer is:  A good dreadnought battleship.

Do you not believe?

300 Me -262s in 1943 > Another Bismark

[katmai]

But really aren't you agreeing with him since he is talking about the 262 in '44, not two years early and in service in '43

Since the bird entered service in April 1944, that would put hypothetical IOC in 1943, right?

The Luftwaffe accepted its 300th Me-262 in October, 1944.  If that had been October, 1943, things may well have been very different for the Allied Bomber Offensive.

300 me-262 fighters? i don't think so.

[Neil]

300 Me -262s in 1943 > Another Bismark

Perhaps, but a good battleship > 300 Me-262s in 1943.

[katmai]

It wasn't introduced in full numbers (enough to field a full squadron) till Jan '45. 

that would be... incorrect. 

Numbers were there, but the desire to form all-jet squadrons was not, for obvious reasons (like mutual support).

okay gumbler.

[katmai]

The answer is:  A good dreadnought battleship.

Do you not believe?

I believe a dreadnought being obsolete in WWII yes.

[jimmy olsen]

A) The Sg-44 if introduced at D-Day/Bagration would have had negligible effects on the course of the war. It would have killed a few more russians and WAllies.

The StG-44 was introduced in April 44 wasn't it? A year in advance would mean it would be issued to the units designated for Operation Citadel.

[grumbler]

I guess my objection is that it presupposes that the Allies don't bust out the Meteor by the thousands, that the Germans find the raw materials to produce teh alloyws they need, that nobody in the west notices that the Germans are getting ready to roll out thousands of jets, etc.

The Meteor cannot save the bomber offensive.  The rest of this makes no sense to me; the Allies knew very well that the Germans had developed, by 1942, a practical jet fighter.  There were no mystery alloys that the Germans needed in 1943 and didn't have until 1944, but even if there were this would have been assumed by the OP.

If you were serious about looking at the impact of the Me-262, instead of just creating strawmen, you would note that the effective end of the daylight bombing campaign until the P-51 was available in numbers would have meant that vastly more patrol planes would have been released to patrol the Atlantic, and that the result would have been that Germany, denied the ability to absorb misplaced Allied production efforts, would have lost sooner. 

[jimmy olsen]

But really aren't you agreeing with him since he is talking about the 262 in '44, not two years early and in service in '43

Since the bird entered service in April 1944, that would put hypothetical IOC in 1943, right?

The Luftwaffe accepted its 300th Me-262 in October, 1944.  If that had been October, 1943, things may well have been very different for the Allied Bomber Offensive.

300 me-262 fighters? i don't think so.

1300-1400 were produced by wars end IIRC, although 500 were destroyed by allied bombing at factories and in transit.

[grumbler]

300 me-262 fighters? i don't think so.

Really?  On what date do you fix the delivery of the 300th Me-262 fighter?

[katmai]

1300-1400 were produced by wars end IIRC, although 500 were destroyed by allied bombing at factories and in transit.

1433 is number i've found. And i've read where 300 at one time were operational, my question is 300 of them operational in Oct '44 which is Grumblers contention.

[katmai]

300 me-262 fighters? i don't think so.

Really?  On what date do you fix the delivery of the 300th Me-262 fighter?

Well considering from all reports of what i 've read the Hitler was still gungho on them as bomber till Oct '44 when the Arado 234 was shown to be a real Jet bomber, i'd say the 354 Me-262's delivered by end of Oct were  primarly delivered as...wait for it.... bombers.

[grumbler]

... my question is 300 of them operational in Oct '44 which is Grumblers contention.

That isn't my contention, but go ahead and tell us when the 300th ME-262 fighter was delivered.  Are you going to argue for November 1944, or December 1944?

[Neil]

I believe a dreadnought being obsolete in WWII yes.

They're still morally superior.