Greece bailed out

[The Larch]

That would probably have required very expensive bank bailouts, so it would not have been cheaper. When Lehman was allowed to go bankrupt that was in hindsight not such a brilliant idea.
And the damage it would do to the idea of European integration and solidarity not to help the Greeks in some way would be immeasurable.

Do you know that some (European) banks have heavy exposure to Greek debt--enough to sink them--or is that speculation?

This is the first I've heard of the concept of European solidarity.

It is known and many of those banks are German. European solidarity is something that has always been present in some way or the other. Development funds, for instance.

[Tamas]

Well, the Greek PM himself accuses banks of taking advantage of Greece's situation (lame excuse of course, reminds me of my buddy who used to play FPS LAN games shouting "don't shoot, don't shoot" at anyone who dared targetin him"
so I would not worry that much about banks going busto.

Besides, at some point, we will have to stop caring for big banks going bust because until they know they will be protected, why they should not take insane risks? Hell, even Greece is in deep shit because the politicans thought that on the longterm something will be done to save their asses, and what do you know...

[Zanza]

Do you know that some (European) banks have heavy exposure to Greek debt--enough to sink them--or is that speculation?

Some of the government owned banks in Germany have heavy exposure, most of all the Hypo Real Estate that was bailed out with 90 billion Euro (or so) last year. So the alternatives for the German government are apparently to either give the Greeks 8-10 billion at a rather high interest rate that will give Germany a nice profit in case Greece is able to pay it back. Or to give money to the black hole that are our government controlled banks.

This is the first I've heard of the concept of European solidarity.

It was always about solidarity. It says so in the preamble of the treaties too. The current preamble has this:

DESIRING to deepen the solidarity between their peoples while respecting their history, their culture and their traditions,

It was different before, but it was always there. To give an example: the Structural Funds and Cohesion Funds, which together are the second biggest EU budget item after agricultural subsidies, is all about solidarity.

[Zanza]

Besides, at some point, we will have to stop caring for big banks going bust because until they know they will be protected, why they should not take insane risks? Hell, even Greece is in deep shit because the politicans thought that on the longterm something will be done to save their asses, and what do you know...

Do you think that in hindsight it was right not to bail out Lehman Brothers?

[Tamas]

Besides, at some point, we will have to stop caring for big banks going bust because until they know they will be protected, why they should not take insane risks? Hell, even Greece is in deep shit because the politicans thought that on the longterm something will be done to save their asses, and what do you know...

Do you think that in hindsight it was right not to bail out Lehman Brothers?

I dislike state bailout of private companies on general principle.

[Zanza]

I dislike state bailout of private companies on general principle.

Me too. But politics is not about principles, but about reality. Do you think that despite violating a good principle a bailout of Lehman would have been beneficial in hindsight?

[Tamas]

I dislike state bailout of private companies on general principle.

Me too. But politics is not about principles, but about reality. Do you think that despite violating a good principle a bailout of Lehman would have been beneficial in hindsight?

I don't know, honestly.

However, this is one of those principles with which they should stick. I am telling you right now that we will have our next US bubble (as a matter of fact one may very well be forming on the stockmarket as we speak) sooner or later, and Spain will be the next asking for lenient loans to sponsor a failed model.
Financial leaders must see there are irreversible huge risks with financial trickery. But for that, there have to be irreversible huge risks with financial trickery.

[derspiess]

However, this is one of those principles with which they should stick. I am telling you right now that we will have our next US bubble (as a matter of fact one may very well be forming on the stockmarket as we speak) sooner or later, and Spain will be the next asking for lenient loans to sponsor a failed model.
Financial leaders must see there are irreversible huge risks with financial trickery. But for that, there have to be irreversible huge risks with financial trickery.

If only the US could get on that gravy train

[Zanza]

Financial leaders must see there are irreversible huge risks with financial trickery. But for that, there have to be irreversible huge risks with financial trickery.

It would be nice if that actually works. As it is, even if shareholders are wiped out in a stock company bust, they are not the ones that actually make the risky decision in the first place. And the very concept of limited liability in a corporation obviously limits the maximum pain they will have to bear to their stake in the corporation. And the real decision makers, the employees of the company, can at worst lose their job as they are usually not liable at all (unless they are stock holders too). So unless you change the law so that banks can no longer operate as limited liability companies, I don't see how this could work.

Hmm, perhaps I could sign up to full liability. I guess that would discourage investment though and might on the whole not be beneficial for a society.

[Valmy]

45 Billion?  Heck you could hardly bail out one failed Wall Street firm for that.  Europe is small time.

[Zanza]

45 Billion?  Heck you could hardly bail out one failed Wall Street firm for that.  Europe is small time.

Unlike a Wall Street bailout, we don't get any Greek stock though. And Greece does not have any assets it could sell off to pay back the loans really. And as it is a sovereign nation, it can always do this: 

[Tamas]

45 Billion?  Heck you could hardly bail out one failed Wall Street firm for that.  Europe is small time.

Unlike a Wall Street bailout, we don't get any Greek stock though. And Greece does not have any assets it could sell off to pay back the loans really. And as it is a sovereign nation, it can always do this: 

Oh and they will. I guess all they need is one party starting to shout "the jews did it, to the hell with all our foreign loans!" it will win the election for them

[Zanza]

By the way, the IMF has currently given loans the following European states Hungary, Ukraine, Iceland, Latvia, Belarus, Romania, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Moldavia, Georgia. That's like half of Eastern Europe.

[MadImmortalMan]

I kinda liked the island-selling idea.

[DontSayBanana]

I kinda liked the island-selling idea.

Use a quit-claim deed and you could do it over and over again.