Viking longships, were they really that combat effective?

[Siege]

I'm navally challenged. I really don't get naval warfare. However, to my untrained eyes, viking longships don't seem that combat effective. Byzantine dromons had far more rowers, marines on board, and even catapults and/or ballistras.

Longships seem to me like greatly overrated. They were no doubt superb transport ships, and could land infantry anywhere, even upstream through rivers, but as far as ship to ship combat, any mediterranean galley would probably beat the shit out of them.

So, what gives?

[Warspite]

The North Sea.

[Josquius]

Easy to maintain, low in resources to build, capable of navigating the roughest seas or the tightest rivers.
The Med galley would flounder and die long before the chance for closing with the longship comes.

[Agelastus]

So, what gives?

As people have said, different combat environment.

Although a Byzantine Dromon does not have more marines - most of the rowers would not have been armed, whereas every single Viking would have been able to drop his oar and take up shield and axe or sword. An early example of the difference between tactics based around boarding and those based around ramming/sinking.

[Siege]

Yeah, but the vikings didn't limit themselves to the North Sea.
They raided the med in many occasions, and in the East, they followed the rivers from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

[Caliga]

 

I don't think the Vikings actually used their longships to fight naval battles, did they?  I believe they were just used as transports, and the advantage as others have already stated had to do with their navigability and small draft.

[Josquius]

I don't think the Vikings actually used their longships to fight naval battles, did they?  I believe they were just used as transports, and the advantage as others have already stated had to do with their navigability and small draft.

Battle is too big a term, fights tended to be a handfull of ships at most but they certainly happened. Many made a living from pirating trade ships rather than just land raiding (though I suppose then they stop being vikings and become just pirates if we're getting into word meanings and all that)

Yeah, but the vikings didn't limit themselves to the North Sea.
They raided the med in many occasions, and in the East, they followed the rivers from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

So you're suggesting as soon as they get into the open Black/Mediterranian they should stop for a year and build themselves a galley?

[Admiral Yi]

Let's ask grumber about his experiences with longships.

[The Brain]

I'm navally challenged. I really don't get naval warfare. However, to my untrained eyes, viking longships don't seem that combat effective. Byzantine dromons had far more rowers, marines on board, and even catapults and/or ballistras.

Longships seem to me like greatly overrated. They were no doubt superb transport ships, and could land infantry anywhere, even upstream through rivers, but as far as ship to ship combat, any mediterranean galley would probably beat the shit out of them.

So, what gives?

You are not completely wrong. God I can't believe I just said that.

It's been a looong time since I read about Vikings, but IIRC check out the Viking attempt on Constantinople in 860. But of course longships may not be the best word for the ships they used on the rivers in the East.

[Lucidor]

If you put a long ship vs a galley in a fishpond, the galley would sink the long ship.

[The Brain]

I don't think the Vikings actually used their longships to fight naval battles, did they?  I believe they were just used as transports, and the advantage as others have already stated had to do with their navigability and small draft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svolder

[Caliga]

Whoops, guess I stand corrected.  So were they commonly used in that capacity?

[Queequeg]

If you put a long ship vs a galley in a fishpond, the galley would sink the long ship.

Every fight I can think of between the Byzantine Navy and the Rus' or other Vikings resulted in Byzantine victory.  I don't think the Vikings generally did very well at all against centralized states with developed navies; there weren't that many raids on Islamic Spain, either.  They were probably fair fighters, and highly militarized, but I don't think they had the same kind of success against semi-professional armies that the Normans or Turks later would. 

[The Brain]

Whoops, guess I stand corrected.  So were they commonly used in that capacity?

No.

[crazy canuck]

Whoops, guess I stand corrected.  So were they commonly used in that capacity?

They were not common.  The long ship was the ultimate multipurpose vessel of the age.  They could strike anywhere without warning.  If you can land in a shallow cove or travel up a river to attack there is no need to engage any defenders in a naval battle.  But sometimes sea battles did occur.

IIRC another such battle was fought by either Rollo or a descendant shortly after Normandy was established to chase away Danish raiders from the Normandy coastline.