Law Enforcement and Deadly Force

[Barrister]

If the taser fails, break out the goddamn nightstick. 

Police officers are supposed to meet non-lethal force (or the threat thereof) with non-lethal force, lethal force (or the threat thereof) with lethal force.  It's not a "fire the taser, then fire the gun" model.

The Taser is an option to the gun, mt an option to the nightstick.

If the Taser doesn't work you go to the gun because if you're using the taser there's a risk of death or greivous bodily harm.

By the way here's the latest RCMP use of force chart:

[DGuller]

Is it wise to send a single woman cop to a domestic disturbance situation?

Why does it matter that the cop is a woman?

Because women on average are smaller and less powerful than men, and thus can be overpowered by big men in a surprise struggle.  I once read about a story where a woman cop was attacked by a guy, and even after he was shot once in the stomach he was able to wrestle her and taker her gun away.

[ulmont]

The Taser is an option to the gun, mt an option to the nightstick.

Tasers are soft control, below the nightstick (hard) and below the gun (lethal) (or intermediate between come-alongs and the nightstick, apparently).

West Palm Beach police consider firing Tasers about midway in the agency's use-of-force criteria, between "soft control techniques" -- such as handcuffing and using pressure points to subdue an aggressor -- and "hand control techniques" such as punching, kicking or unleashing a dog, according to the policy. The Taser and pepper spray both rank fourth in the department's six categories of acceptable force. Firing a gun is sixth on the list.

See also http://www.police.nashville.gov/news/media/2008/05/29a.htm

[Maximus]

Chart's not showing up, Beeb.

Anyway, if I recall correctly from when an officer visited us in school way back when, the RCMP are not supposed to even draw unless lethal force is required.

Of course that was a long time ago, I may remember incorrectly, or it may have changed.

[Barrister]

Is it wise to send a single woman cop to a domestic disturbance situation?

Why does it matter that the cop is a woman?

Because women on average are smaller and less powerful than men, and thus can be overpowered by big men in a surprise struggle.  I once read about a story where a woman cop was attacked by a guy, and even after he was shot once in the stomach he was able to wrestle her and taker her gun away.

Either they are a cop, or they aren't.

I've met plenty of fairly small male cops, and some really big powerful female cops.

Your question should read whether a single cop should be going to a call of domestic disturbance or not.

[Berkut]

Couldn't she have just gotten back in her car and called for backup?

[Caliga]

 

um, it's not like cops have to be "big men", though all cops (male or female) have physical fitness requirements they need to meet.

[DGuller]

um, it's not like cops have to be "big men", though all cops (male or female) have physical fitness requirements they need to meet.

Even if there are minimal physical requirements, people who tend to be stronger will tend to exceed them more.

[Barrister]

Chart's not showing up, Beeb.

Anyway, if I recall correctly from when an officer visited us in school way back when, the RCMP are not supposed to even draw unless lethal force is required.

Of course that was a long time ago, I may remember incorrectly, or it may have changed.

Not quite.  I'm not sure how to phrase it, and the RCMP don't give out their exact use of force guidelines to the public, but they certainly can draw their firearm when the situation is elevated but doesn't yet require lethal force.

[Caliga]

Couldn't she have just gotten back in her car and called for backup?

I'm thinking she prolly should have, yeah.

[Berkut]

6.  Cop draws sidearm and points it at the suspect, ordering suspect to stop.

7.  Suspect ignores order and continues to advance.

8.  Cop fires one round at the suspect, striking them in the midsection/abdomen/stomach/whatever.

This timeline looks questionable in terms of the gunshot; a naked man advancing is not obviously threatening deadly force.

Disagree completely.  He has already had a verbal altercation with the cop.  Has shrugged off a taser and his coming at the cop. What would you have the cop do?  She already used her nonleathal means of force and it failed.

Get back in her car, lock the door, call for backup - this is assuming she is not confident she can take the guy in a physical altercation.

[ulmont]

This person was coming at the officer.  In your world when shoud the officer be permitted to shoot.

An unarmed person?  Never.  If we have cops that cannot subdue an unarmed suspect without killing them then we need to get rid of them and get better cops (or at least send them in pairs).

[DGuller]

Your question should read whether a single cop should be going to a call of domestic disturbance or not.

That's part of the question.  However, given that there is only one cop, a single male cop is less likely to be physically overpowered than a single female cop.

[Barrister]

Your question should read whether a single cop should be going to a call of domestic disturbance or not.

That's part of the question.  However, given that there is only one cop, a single male cop is less likely to be physically overpowered than a single female cop.

Bullshit.

[Caliga]

Not quite.  I'm not sure how to phrase it, and the RCMP don't give out their exact use of force guidelines to the public, but they certainly can draw their firearm when the situation is elevated but doesn't yet require lethal force.

Well, on COPS*, I've seen cops draw weapons without firing plenty of times.  Often they'll draw their sidearm, point it at a suspect, yell at a suspect to get on the ground, and then a partner (if one is present) will cuff the person behind their back or whatever while the gun is still trained on them by cop #1.

* yes people, I realize this is television and the cops may not act this way when the cameras are off.