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House to vote on health care reform Sunday.

Started by jimmy olsen, March 21, 2010, 07:49:56 AM

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Faeelin

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2010, 06:04:08 PM

People who don't have health insurance are not delivering, purchasing, or selling health care services.  They are inactive.

AFAICT there's no precedent in US history for fining people for not doing something.

There are plenty of regulations which fine people for not doing things. Environmental statutes, for instance.  ;)

I know what you're getting at, but the argument only makes sense if you say the health insurance mandate is about only regulating health insurance. Otherwise you're asking a court to believe that Congress can't regulate health care because there's someone out there who has never, ever visited a doctor.

grumbler

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2010, 06:04:08 PM
Well, all arguments were made up at some point or another, weren't they?

People who don't have health insurance are not delivering, purchasing, or selling health care services.  They are inactive.

AFAICT there's no precedent in US history for fining people for not doing something.
Sure there is. If you don't pay taxes, you get fined.

The problem with the "not consuming health care" assumption is that it is false.  Virtually everyone is going to consume health care at some point.  It may be involuntary, even.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Faeelin on March 23, 2010, 06:06:34 PM
There are plenty of regulations which fine people for not doing things. Environmental statutes, for instance.  ;)
What are the fines for not polluting?;)

QuoteI know what you're getting at, but the argument only makes sense if you say the health insurance mandate is about only regulating health insurance. Otherwise you're asking a court to believe that Congress can't regulate health care because there's someone out there who has never, ever visited a doctor.
But the fine is not imposed on people who visit a doctor without insurance, it's a fine on people without insurance full stop.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: grumbler on March 23, 2010, 06:08:07 PM
Sure there is. If you don't pay taxes, you get fined.
You used to get fined or jailed for not showing up for induction too.  But I don't think those activities are covered by the commerce clause.  Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

Faeelin

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2010, 06:19:30 PM
But the fine is not imposed on people who visit a doctor without insurance, it's a fine on people without insurance full stop.

I get that. But those people who do not have insurance will use healthcare at some point in their life, right?

The bill regulates healthcare by mandating that individuals who have or will use healthcare in the future perform an action.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Faeelin on March 23, 2010, 06:46:11 PM
I get that. But those people who do not have insurance will use healthcare at some point in their life, right?

The bill regulates healthcare by mandating that individuals who have or will use healthcare in the future perform an action.
One could even say an activity. :P

It's all good.  If it goes to the court and the boys and girls in black say the government has the power to regulate inactivity that has economic consequences (and what doesn't?) I'm not going to join a militia.  I just didn't find the argument persuasive.

Neil

Quote from: citizen k on March 23, 2010, 05:46:50 PM
To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko.  :tinfoil:
Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

ulmont

Quote from: Neil on March 23, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
Quote from: citizen k on March 23, 2010, 05:46:50 PM
To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko.  :tinfoil:
Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?

Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.

Neil

Quote from: ulmont on March 23, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
Quote from: Neil on March 23, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
Quote from: citizen k on March 23, 2010, 05:46:50 PM
To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko.  :tinfoil:
Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?
Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.
Yeah, but that's Christianity-related, not left/right related.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Eddie Teach

The "very far right" in the founders' day were monarchists.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

grumbler

Quote from: ulmont on March 23, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.
:huh: I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Unless this is a joke.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2010, 06:58:40 PM
I just didn't find the argument persuasive.
Oh.  Well, that's all right.  I don't find lots of commonly accepted arguments very persuasive.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

ulmont

Quote from: grumbler on March 23, 2010, 08:59:15 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 23, 2010, 07:35:59 PM
Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.
:huh: I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Unless this is a joke.

*shrug* "diminished Jefferson's role as regards to the Enlightenment," if you must.  Clearly, Jefferson is not a friend of the Texas Board of Education, and by extension to the far right.

jimmy olsen

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 23, 2010, 09:31:09 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2010, 07:05:50 PM
I found the part about inactivity being activity and direct taxation not all that persuasive.

Elaborate?  ;)

QuoteBTW, what is a capitation tax?

A direct tax of a flat amount per person (per head).
Apparently the legislation gets around this by imposing the tax on AGI (income) but then capping it at a very low amount.  Analytically this is very close to a capitation tax and arguably amounts to an artful dodge, but the direct taxation clause is kind of a constitutional anachronism and the Court is not likely to bend over to knock out the law on this basis.
Declaring something a "constitutional anachronism" and thus okay to ignore is an extremely dangerous precedent.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
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Caliga

Quote from: ulmont on March 23, 2010, 09:40:57 PM
*shrug* "diminished Jefferson's role as regards to the Enlightenment," if you must.  Clearly, Jefferson is not a friend of the Texas Board of Education, and by extension to the far right.
Remember, Jefferson edited the Bible and took all the magic fantasy hocus-pocus shit out of the New Testament.  :)
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