House to vote on health care reform Sunday.

[Faeelin]

People who don't have health insurance are not delivering, purchasing, or selling health care services.  They are inactive.

AFAICT there's no precedent in US history for fining people for not doing something.

There are plenty of regulations which fine people for not doing things. Environmental statutes, for instance. 

I know what you're getting at, but the argument only makes sense if you say the health insurance mandate is about only regulating health insurance. Otherwise you're asking a court to believe that Congress can't regulate health care because there's someone out there who has never, ever visited a doctor.

[grumbler]

Well, all arguments were made up at some point or another, weren't they?

People who don't have health insurance are not delivering, purchasing, or selling health care services.  They are inactive.

AFAICT there's no precedent in US history for fining people for not doing something.

Sure there is. If you don't pay taxes, you get fined.

The problem with the "not consuming health care" assumption is that it is false.  Virtually everyone is going to consume health care at some point.  It may be involuntary, even.

[Admiral Yi]

There are plenty of regulations which fine people for not doing things. Environmental statutes, for instance. 

What are the fines for not polluting?

I know what you're getting at, but the argument only makes sense if you say the health insurance mandate is about only regulating health insurance. Otherwise you're asking a court to believe that Congress can't regulate health care because there's someone out there who has never, ever visited a doctor.

But the fine is not imposed on people who visit a doctor without insurance, it's a fine on people without insurance full stop.

[Admiral Yi]

Sure there is. If you don't pay taxes, you get fined.

You used to get fined or jailed for not showing up for induction too.  But I don't think those activities are covered by the commerce clause.  Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

[Faeelin]

But the fine is not imposed on people who visit a doctor without insurance, it's a fine on people without insurance full stop.

I get that. But those people who do not have insurance will use healthcare at some point in their life, right?

The bill regulates healthcare by mandating that individuals who have or will use healthcare in the future perform an action.

[Admiral Yi]

I get that. But those people who do not have insurance will use healthcare at some point in their life, right?

The bill regulates healthcare by mandating that individuals who have or will use healthcare in the future perform an action.

One could even say an activity.

It's all good.  If it goes to the court and the boys and girls in black say the government has the power to regulate inactivity that has economic consequences (and what doesn't?) I'm not going to join a militia.  I just didn't find the argument persuasive.

[Neil]

To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko. 

Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?

[ulmont]

To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko. 

Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?

Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.

[Neil]

To the very far right, there has never been a sitting president that wasn't a pinko. 

Washington?  Jefferson?  Jackson?

Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.

Yeah, but that's Christianity-related, not left/right related.

[Eddie Teach]

The "very far right" in the founders' day were monarchists.

[grumbler]

Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.

I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Unless this is a joke.

[grumbler]

I just didn't find the argument persuasive.

Oh.  Well, that's all right.  I don't find lots of commonly accepted arguments very persuasive.

[ulmont]

Remember, Texas just took Jefferson out of the school books.

I'm guessing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.  Unless this is a joke.

*shrug* "diminished Jefferson's role as regards to the Enlightenment," if you must.  Clearly, Jefferson is not a friend of the Texas Board of Education, and by extension to the far right.

[jimmy olsen]

I found the part about inactivity being activity and direct taxation not all that persuasive.

Elaborate? 

BTW, what is a capitation tax?

A direct tax of a flat amount per person (per head).
Apparently the legislation gets around this by imposing the tax on AGI (income) but then capping it at a very low amount.  Analytically this is very close to a capitation tax and arguably amounts to an artful dodge, but the direct taxation clause is kind of a constitutional anachronism and the Court is not likely to bend over to knock out the law on this basis.

Declaring something a "constitutional anachronism" and thus okay to ignore is an extremely dangerous precedent.

[Caliga]

*shrug* "diminished Jefferson's role as regards to the Enlightenment," if you must.  Clearly, Jefferson is not a friend of the Texas Board of Education, and by extension to the far right.

Remember, Jefferson edited the Bible and took all the magic fantasy hocus-pocus shit out of the New Testament.