The End of Christian America

[Valmy]

That's what you get for being a Social Fascist Tolerant Moderate!

What?

[Valmy]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

Well we had two Great Awakenings but the last one was over 150 years ago... 

[Berkut]

With the Evangelical movement dividing Christians into Us and Pseudo-Humanists this isn't that surprising.  But the Evangelical movement is now totally out of steam, and there are a few more moderate Christian intellectuals out there.  I fully expect to see a Moderate Christian revival that will help stem the bleeding from two decades of Bible-bashing insanity, and I think the Dawkins-Hitchens-Whatever crowd are now poisoning the atmosphere for atheism as badly as the Evangelicals ever did for Christianity.

I guess it depends on what you see as the source of the upswing in atheism.  If you see it as dissatisfaction with the religious right, then your analysis might hold.  However, if you see it as a general decrease in the level of superstition in society, then I'm not sure that a 'Great Revival' is possible.

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

I think you are

A) Wrong about there not being any great upswing in education, and

B) Creating a false dichotomy that says that absent an upswing in education, we must presume that the only thing that can explain a rise in secularism is a reaction against a revival. Or a Revival.

Lastly, I think your reminding us that this country is famous for revivals is bogus. The US has always been a mostly Christian nation, and the relative importance of religion has not varied all that much while steadily declining at a relatively low rate with the occasional blip.

[Norgy]

Yes they are doing so much damage that we have a thread called "The End of Christian America". What Dawkins et.al. do is force the choice between tradition and reason. People resent being forced to make the choice. Needless to say, eventually the choice leads to either reason or fundamentalism.

Honestly, I don't see why people should be "forced to make a choice" between "reason" and "tradition", and I think it's a constructed meta-reality that such a choice exists.

And it does not lead to "either reason or fundamentalism", it leads to the precise silliness Dawkins spends half his time debunking (when he's not busy killing God); alternative medicine, healing, aural energy stuff. It leads to invented tradition covered in scientific language, half-baked imported mysticism with a hint of animist religion. If the Christian god is dead, we'd better find a new one, because this science god is boring and demands evidence.

I applaud the willingness to challenge unreason and counterknowledge, but I sincerely doubt hyperbole and tabloidisation of science helps. T

[Valmy]

alternative medicine, healing, aural energy stuff

Hey Quantum Mechanics proves all this stuff is true somehow.

[Norgy]

alternative medicine, healing, aural energy stuff

Hey Quantum Mechanics proves all this stuff is true somehow.

And Quantum Mechanics is, as we all know, science. Super fantastic rational reasonable science!!! 

[Ed Anger]

Every time I hear someone argue that Atheists are more educated/intelligent/tolerant/fun, I just send them this YouTube Video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgGBuEdvF0

Thank you. Now I can explain to people why I've grown tired of atheists. I can just point them to the YouTube douchebag.

[Berkut]

Every time I hear someone argue that Atheists are more educated/intelligent/tolerant/fun, I just send them this YouTube Video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgGBuEdvF0

Thank you. Now I can explain to people why I've grown tired of atheists. I can just point them to the YouTube douchebag.

How many atheists do you know who act like that? Must be quite a lot, you should video them and post them on youtube.

[Neil]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

There has, however, been a great upswing in our knowledge of the universe, and the evidence to support it.  That knowledge is devastating to Christianity.

[Ed Anger]

Every time I hear someone argue that Atheists are more educated/intelligent/tolerant/fun, I just send them this YouTube Video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mgGBuEdvF0

Thank you. Now I can explain to people why I've grown tired of atheists. I can just point them to the YouTube douchebag.

How many atheists do you know who act like that? Must be quite a lot, you should video them and post them on youtube.

That would mean having to listen to them. Ugh.

[Berkut]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

There has, however, been a great upswing in our knowledge of the universe, and the evidence to support it.  That knowledge is devastating to Christianity.

The high school graduation rate since 1940 has gone from about 50% to about 80%.

College attendance rates, I am sure, have gone up dramatically as well.

The argument that there has been no upswing in education is spectacularly wrong.

[Queequeg]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

There has, however, been a great upswing in our knowledge of the universe, and the evidence to support it.  That knowledge is devastating to Christianity.

The high school graduation rate since 1940 has gone from about 50% to about 80%.

College attendance rates, I am sure, have gone up dramatically as well.

The argument that there has been no upswing in education is spectacularly wrong.

I meant in the last 20 years, with the upswing in those who identify as non-religious. 

[Iormlund]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

Religion is down everywhere, not just the US. It is a global phenomenon, even if it is felt strongest in Europe. Availability of information is anathema to any kind of superstition.

[Queequeg]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

Religion is down everywhere, not just the US. It is a global phenomenon, even if it is felt strongest in Europe. Availability of information is anathema to any kind of superstition.

China, Turkey, the rise of Evangelical Christianity in Latin America?  If anything the secularization of Europe is somewhat unique to Europe, though obviously some areas are affected by Europe (Quebec).

[Neil]

This doesn't hold, I don't think, as there has been no great upswing in education or science or the like to explain the rise in Secularism as anything other than a reaction against a Revival.

And need I remind you that this country is (in)famous for its revivals.  Fanatical with the Pilgrims, the most secular nation in the world during the Revolution, fanatical during the Great Revival, secular after the Civil War, etc.....

There has, however, been a great upswing in our knowledge of the universe, and the evidence to support it.  That knowledge is devastating to Christianity.

The high school graduation rate since 1940 has gone from about 50% to about 80%.

College attendance rates, I am sure, have gone up dramatically as well.

The argument that there has been no upswing in education is spectacularly wrong.

Cherry-picked.  How about in comparison to 1980?