Lexington: "A Nation of Jailbirds"

[Barrister]

So I guess instead of me saying what isn't the cause, I should give my guess what is:

NUmber one seems to be the range of sentences.  If you hand out sentences measured in years, not months or days, you're going to wind up with a large prison population.

And number two would be demographics.  While the US is no longer as exceptional as it once was in terms of its highly variable demographics, it still is much less homogenous than almost any other country out there.  And we know that in country after country there are distinct groups with crime rates well out of step with the "majority" of the country.

[Berkut]

BB, who said it was the "primary cause"? I am pretty sure I said it was a combination of the war on drugs and strict sentencing guidelines - which in themselves were developed largely in the context of the war on drugs.

[Malthus]

BB, who said it was the "primary cause"? I am pretty sure I said it was a combination of the war on drugs and strict sentencing guidelines - which in themselves were developed largely in the context of the war on drugs.

IMO, the existence of a Black underclass is also a major factor.

[Berkut]

BB, who said it was the "primary cause"? I am pretty sure I said it was a combination of the war on drugs and strict sentencing guidelines - which in themselves were developed largely in the context of the war on drugs.

IMO, the existence of a Black underclass is also a major factor.

Probably true, but we have always had those demographic issues, yet the extremely high relative incarceration rate in the US is relatively new (since the early 80s, IIRC).

[ulmont]

Indeed. Why we decided that judges should quit all that judging bullshit and just rubber stamp legislative dictates is rather beyond me.

You may want to differentiate between determinate sentencing, like the federal sentencing guidelines, and just mandatory minimums.

The sentencing guidelines came about because we realized that people were getting radically different sentences in an unfair way because of which judges they drew, what class they were, etc.  This still happens in some systems; in Georgia, for example, the same amount of marijuana will likely get you probation in Fulton County and 5 years in Mitchell County, which is more than a little insane.

So sentencing guidelines were an attempt to treat people like based on their offense, in a number of ways (first offense, assistance to government, acceptance of responsibility, and the converse), rather than have sentences vary on other factors.

[The Brain]

The "European system" is a joke that hurts society. America still sucks ass though. Big time.

[jimmy olsen]

This, if true, is pretty alarming:

most of the 20th century America imprisoned roughly the same proportion of its population as many other countries—a hundred people for every 100,000 citizens. But while other countries stayed where they were, the American incarceration rate then took off—to 313 per 100,000 in 1985 and 648 in 1997.

What could possibly justify doubling the prison population in twelve years? And what is the rate now, in 2009? Have these years been cherry-picked as outliers?

Don't remember the crack epidemic and the explosion of violence that followed it? What were you doing in the 80s Malthus? 

[Berkut]

What were you doing in the 80s Fahdiz? 

Probably incarcerated, along with the rest of the nation.

[jimmy olsen]

Of course it was lower, we sent all the criminals to jail!

That doesn't make much sense.  How would we a higher percentage of people in jail with proportionately fewer arrests?  Are prosecuters just alot better now?  Defense lawyers just that much worse?  Our courts are becoming kangaroo courts?

I suspect sentences have simply become much longer for the same crimes.

I suspect this explains some of the difference compared to other Western democracies (but not ALL of it - the 6:1 ratio is just too big to be explained away with just the fact that European courts are more lenient on criminals), however have the US courts really become more harsh in the recent years? Could any of the US lawyers cabal weigh in on that?

3 strikes laws Marty. Get convicted of 3 felonies and you get life.

[jimmy olsen]

Interesting.

So if someone was convicted of robbing his former employer at gunpoint, shooting his wife, and raping his daughter - a prospective future employer has no right to know that?

Wouldn't that be mentioned in the cause of termination section of the resume? 

[Malthus]

This, if true, is pretty alarming:

most of the 20th century America imprisoned roughly the same proportion of its population as many other countries—a hundred people for every 100,000 citizens. But while other countries stayed where they were, the American incarceration rate then took off—to 313 per 100,000 in 1985 and 648 in 1997.

What could possibly justify doubling the prison population in twelve years? And what is the rate now, in 2009? Have these years been cherry-picked as outliers?

Don't remember the crack epidemic and the explosion of violence that followed it? What were you doing in the 80s Fahdiz? 

The crack epidemic doubled the US prision population in a decade but somehow totally avoided Canada? 

Mighty selective epidemic, that. Good thing that it respected our border.

And why are you calling me "Fahdiz"?

[derspiess]

What were you doing in the 80s Fahdiz? 

Probably incarcerated, along with the rest of the nation.

54-46 was his number

[Admiral Yi]

The crack epidemic doubled the US prision population in a decade but somehow totally avoided Canada? 

Didn't it?  It seems to have not hit Europe.

[jimmy olsen]

This, if true, is pretty alarming:

most of the 20th century America imprisoned roughly the same proportion of its population as many other countries—a hundred people for every 100,000 citizens. But while other countries stayed where they were, the American incarceration rate then took off—to 313 per 100,000 in 1985 and 648 in 1997.

What could possibly justify doubling the prison population in twelve years? And what is the rate now, in 2009? Have these years been cherry-picked as outliers?

Don't remember the crack epidemic and the explosion of violence that followed it? What were you doing in the 80s Fahdiz? 

The crack epidemic doubled the US prision population in a decade but somehow totally avoided Canada? 

Mighty selective epidemic, that. Good thing that it respected our border.

And why are you calling me "Fahdiz"?

You're avatar made me think of him for some reason. 

Yes, crime exploded and sentences were made much harsher in response, especially for possession of crack cocaine.

[Norgy]

The "European system" is a joke that hurts society. America still sucks ass though. Big time.

Jokes don't hurt society. Jokers do.