Toyota recall hearings

[dps]

All Toyotas sold in the US are made in the US (at least in recent years--obviously, this wasn't always the case), so non-discrimination against foreign goods isn't even germane to the discussion.

They're foreign goods as products of a business that's headquartered outside of the US.  You made a funny.

Check the domestic content laws as they apply to automobiles.  Toyatas sold here are domestic.

[grumbler]

Oh, you really mean it? Sorry then.
I guess I should not have assumed that everybody is aware of the Marrakesh Agreement on Government Procurement of 1994 which harmonized the government procurement rules in the EU and the USA. That's why citing EU procurement rules - at least in the very general terms I did here - makes sense when you talk about US government procurement. They are bound by international treaties to have the same non-discrimination rules for foreign goods and services. I thought that everybody who would weigh in on a debate on government procurement would at least know these very basics, but I guess I should have expected ignorant readers such as you as well. So sorry for not considering your ignorance when I made my initial post. Next time, I will state it so that even people who have no idea at all about the topic at hand, can contribute in a meaningful way.

By the way, if your genius doesn't get in the way, check out the Buy American Act http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t41t42+22+1++%2841%29%20%20AND%2 41 USC Sec. 10a

It is exempt from the GSA, as acknowledged by  http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/sell2usgov-vendreaugouvusa/procurement-marches/buyamerica.aspx?lang=eng. 

U.S. government exceptions under NAFTA Chapter 10 and the WTO Agreement on Government Procurement allow for such procurement preferences.

To us stupids, this seems to indicate that you geniuses have your oversized heads up your (now also oversized) asses.

This would also tend to support Yi's query, except in such cases as the Toyotas in question are made in the US.

So, while

I thought that everybody who would weigh in on a debate on government procurement would at least know these very basics

is proven false by your words far more than by mine,

I guess I should have expected ignorant readers such as you as well

and

sorry for not considering your ignorance when I made my initial post

can be made true simply by making yourself the exemplar rather than me.

[grumbler]

Where did you find feds auctioning Toyotas, BTW?  I checked GSA's link and didn't even see a possibility to search with "Toyota" as make, so I gave up early; just typical government-issue laziness about categorizing?

I didn't keep the link, because it wasn't reliably saying anything useful for the discussion.  It might have been a private link to the GSA auctions, though, and what few Toyotas were there may have been sold already.

[DontSayBanana]

[snip]
This would also tend to support Yi's query, except in such cases as the Toyotas in question are made in the US.
[/snip]

I'm not entirely convinced this is germane to the argument; as was mentioned earlier in the thread, almost all mass-distributed vehicle makes in the United States build onshore, so while it might preclude brands not widely available in the US like Aston Martin or Renault, it certainly wouldn't preclude any of the major Asian "import" makes like Toyota, Hyundai, or Nissan.

[grumbler]

[snip]
This would also tend to support Yi's query, except in such cases as the Toyotas in question are made in the US.
[/snip]

I'm not entirely convinced this is germane to the argument; as was mentioned earlier in the thread, almost all mass-distributed vehicle makes in the United States build onshore, so while it might preclude brands not widely available in the US like Aston Martin or Renault, it certainly wouldn't preclude any of the major Asian "import" makes like Toyota, Hyundai, or Nissan.

I thought that "except in such cases as the Toyotas in question are made in the US" would cover that possibility.

There may be some detail about "manufacture" that would make Toyotas assembled in the US (but maybe from components made elsewhere) not eligible under "Buy American" but I don't care to get so deeply into the technicalities.

EU procurement laws would not apply in any case.

[Admiral Yi]

All Toyotas sold in the US are made in the US (at least in recent years--obviously, this wasn't always the case), so non-discrimination against foreign goods isn't even germane to the discussion.

Really?

I thought that was Honda's marketing edge, the Japanese car built in America.

[DontSayBanana]

Really?

I thought that was Honda's marketing edge, the Japanese car built in America.

Acura is Honda's "American" brand.  Likewise, my Kia is an "American" Hyundai.

[Admiral Yi]

Acura is Honda's "American" brand.  Likewise, my Kia is an "American" Hyundai.

I thought Acura was Honda's luxury brand, to compete with Lexus, Beemer et al.

[DGuller]

Really?

I thought that was Honda's marketing edge, the Japanese car built in America.

Acura is Honda's "American" brand.  Likewise, my Kia is an "American" Hyundai.

Where do you get all your automotive facts? 

[DGuller]

Acura is Honda's "American" brand.  Likewise, my Kia is an "American" Hyundai.

I thought Acura was Honda's luxury brand, to compete with Lexus, Beemer et al.

That is correct, Acura is the luxury/performance brand of Honda.  Honda created the Acura brand because the Honda brand is just not at all synonymous with either of those two things.

[DontSayBanana]

I thought Acura was Honda's luxury brand, to compete with Lexus, Beemer et al.

Acura's been somewhat of a unique case in that it's not simply a luxury marquee.  In several cases, the equivalent Honda lines actually went higher (most notably the NSX/S-2000 in the '90s).

[Jaron]

I don't know why people read DontSayBanana with such seriousness. The boys been known for years to just randomly make up facts and claim expertise on just about every topic.

[Barrister]

Really?

I thought that was Honda's marketing edge, the Japanese car built in America.

Acura is Honda's "American" brand.  Likewise, my Kia is an "American" Hyundai.

Where do you get all your automotive facts? 

The same place he gets many of his facts. 

[KRonn]

Hmm... things may have taken quite a turn for the worse for Toyota. 

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2010/03/03/drivers-complain-toyotas-fixes-didnt-work/

Drivers Complain That Toyota's Fixes Didn't Work

AP

The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.



DETROIT  -- At least 15 Toyota drivers have complained to U.S. safety officials that their cars sped up by themselves even after being fixed under recalls for sticky gas pedals or floor mat problems, according to an Associated Press analysis.

The development raises questions about whether Toyota's repairs will bring an end to the cases of wild, uncontrolled acceleration or if there may be electronic causes behind the complaints that have dogged the automaker.

Although the allegations were unverified by the agency, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Wednesday it was contacting people who have complained about acceleration problems even after repairs were done under two large recalls. The agency wants to hear from others who have had similar troubles, it said.

"If Toyota owners are still experiencing sudden acceleration incidents after taking their cars to the dealership, we want to know about it," agency administrator David Strickland said in a statement.
The new complaints raised eyebrows in Congress, which has held three hearings on the recalls in the past week and is investigating Toyota's safety problems.

"I am deeply concerned that NHTSA has received this many reports of possible sudden unanticipated acceleration even after these vehicles have received Toyota's recommended fix," said Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, who serves on one of the committees investigating Toyota.
"It's critical that we get to the bottom of this problem as quickly as possible."

Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said Wednesday the company was investigating the complaints, though it remains confident in its recall fixes. Teams of engineers are being mobilized to check into the complaints, he said.

Toyota has recalled more than 8 million vehicles worldwide since October to fix floor mats that can snag gas pedals or faulty gas pedal assemblies that can stick.

NHTSA says 52 people have been killed in crashes linked to Toyota's acceleration problems. Toyota has blamed mechanical causes or drivers pressing the wrong pedal. However, some question whether the electronic throttle system or a software glitch may be at fault, rather than a mechanical issue involving pedals. Toyota says it is looking into electronics as a possible cause.
In the meantime, complaints keep coming in from drivers who say the fix has not solved the problem, including at least 15 filed with NHTSA in the last two weeks, according to an AP analysis of the agency database.

The owner of a 2009 Camry, Stewart Stogel, of Mount Vernon, N.Y., told the AP he narrowly missed driving over an embankment and hitting a wall when the mid-size sedan accelerated on its own last Saturday -- five days after being serviced as part of the recall.

Stogel, who has not filed a complaint with NHTSA, said the incident occurred near his home after a dealership trimmed the gas pedal and installed new brake control software as part of the floor mat recall.

"At first the brakes didn't engage at all," said the 49-year-old freelance journalist. "Just as I approached Terrace Avenue, the wheels were able to get some traction, and all of the sudden the engine did disengage."

Stogel said the car had accelerated two previous times before the recall fix, and both times he took it to dealerships to be checked. In one case it was inspected by a Toyota corporate technician who could find nothing wrong, he said.

After the latest incident, Stogel called his dealer, who told him to return with the car so Toyota engineers could inspect it. He did so on Wednesday and was given a loaner car. He also left a message with Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. President Jim Lentz.

Carolyn Kimbrell, 59, a retired office assistant in Whitesville, Ky., said her 2006 Toyota Avalon accelerated last weekend as she was returning with her 9-year-old granddaughter from a trip to the mall. The incident occurred a week after her dealer inserted a metal piece into the gas pedal mechanism on Feb. 20 to eliminate the friction blamed for the pedal problems.

The dealer said her car wasn't covered by the floor mat recall, but agreed to do that fix after she reported the latest incident, she said.

Now she wonders if the company's remedies will solve the problem. "It just scares you," Kimbrell said.

The recalls have hurt Toyota's safety and quality reputation and brought death and injury lawsuits. Federal prosecutors in New York are conducting a criminal investigation into the recalls and the Securities and Exchange Commission is probing what the automaker told investors.

Electronic causes have come under scrutiny because until now, Toyota and the government have done little to examine them. Most modern cars are essentially computers on wheels, with systems of sensors, wires and computer chips controlling the throttle, brakes, transmissions and other functions.

Software glitches can develop in the computers, electrical interference can cause sensors to send the wrong signals and there can be electrical shorts. Sometimes two or three glitches can happen at once.

Re-creating electronic problems is extremely difficult because often they leave no trace.
The latest complaints are further evidence that the automaker's repairs don't cover all possible causes, said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research and Strategies Inc., a Massachusetts-based car safety investigation and advocacy group who has studied Toyota.

"Anybody who has reviewed the complaints and reviewed what's going on here has to reach a conclusion that there's more going on than sticky pedals, floor mats and drivers," said Kane, whose firm has done research for trial lawyers suing Toyota.

Kane believes the problem has multiple electronic roots, perhaps in cruise-control mechanisms.
So far NHTSA, which has the power to force an automaker to recall vehicles, has gone along with the mechanical causes pinpointed by Toyota.

"What we need this agency to do is really question Toyota, look at the issues in a more thorough way," Kane said. "In the past they were quick to dismiss electronics."

[\quote]

[DGuller]

I always thought it was a blunder for Toyota to claim with such a conviction that the gas pedal fix would absolutely, positively, 100% assuredly solve the problem.  It was obvious that something more than mechanical was at work, so they were setting themselves up for an unavoidable follow-up PR disaster once the fixed cars start accelerating on their own.  At least the fixed cars now have an engine cut-off that activates at 30 MPH, so the chances of the sticking throttle becoming fatal is reduced big time.