France bars citizenship over veil

[grumbler]

I just have serious doubts about the overall effeciency of it in terms of reducing immigration of mooslimb goatfuckers. I mean, isn't it like in the Quoran how Mohamed backstabbed the jews with some peace treaty and how that was like the coolest thing to do?

The kinds of people the French are trying to keep out are not the Muslim equivalents of Pascal, they are economic refugees who also happen to be religious bigots.  They will ask their local religious leader if it is okay to take an oath to renounce a central tenet of their religion so they can get a better job in France, and the local imam will say "no."

I don't know whether the Koran has some story about how lying is a cool thing under some circumstances; I do know that Shi'ites (but not Sunnis) are allowed to lie about their faith to save their lives.  If I had to guess, I'd guess that the story that "Mohamed backstabbed the jews with some peace treaty and how that was like the coolest thing to do" was the product of some anti-Muslim bigot.

[Tamas]

Just for the record I will keep a close eye on where you start your grumbelism and I will leave this thread so you can claim victory

I am just saying because I am fully aware that you know history way too well than to don't know that no matter how zealous a person or society is, it will never overwrite their economic interests. There are always exceptions to that rule of course, and your suggestion could be implemented to keep those sorry-ass losers out, but otherwise, the rest will find a way.

[derspiess]

How do you know this?  You can't be this naive.

  Whatever.

Seriously-- what makes you think the nutbars won't take the oath & then promptly ignore it, laughing at its irrelevance to their culture/religion?

I see no harm in requiring the oath-- I just don't see it helping much if at all.  Now if you added penalties to violating the oath, like having your eyebrows shaved off or-- the ultimate punishment-- exposure to menstrual blood, then maybe we're getting somewhere

[dps]

It all boils down to one question:


"How can we discriminate without appearing to be discriminating?" 

Yep.  Just like instead of just outright denying voting rights to blacks, we'll require potential voters to pass a civics test in order to register.  And if whites happen to get quetions like, "Who was the first President of the US" and blacks happen to get questions like, "Contrast and compare the ideals of the following Revolutions:  American, French, and Russian", well, that's just the luck of the draw.

[Ed Anger]

Le Pen is the answer.

[Ancient Demon]

I don't see how an oath will stop anyone. Being deeply religious doesn't make one any more honest, especially if one believes that God expressly permits lying to non-believers.

[Grallon]

I don't see how an oath will stop anyone. Being deeply religious doesn't make one any more honest, especially if one believes that God expressly permits lying to non-believers.

Who are you again?  In any case, you should't swallow all grumbler spews - his rethoric often confuses him.

And anyway, as a rule one shouldn't trust a muslim - ever.




G.

[Sheilbh]

I don't know whether the Koran has some story about how lying is a cool thing under some circumstances; I do know that Shi'ites (but not Sunnis) are allowed to lie about their faith to save their lives. 

This is the concept of, I believe, taqiyya.  It's only allowed in certain circumstances, to save their life or the lives of others and if someone else will lose their life because of the lie it's forbidden.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the story that "Mohamed backstabbed the jews with some peace treaty and how that was like the coolest thing to do" was the product of some anti-Muslim bigot.

I believe it's based on the story that the Hijra to Medina was based on a treaty between Mohamed and some Jewish tribes, it basically placed Mohamed as a jurist for inter-Jewish disputes and promised to work together.  When the Meccans attacked Medina one of the tribes betrayed Mohamed because the Meccans promised them control over Medina and they were massacred.  It's mentioned pretty briefly in the Quran the rest is histories and stories around it, so no-one's terribly sure what happened. 

It's never to my knowledge been used within Islam as an example of it being okay to lie so you can take over a society.  Some Sunni hadiths suggest that lying can be acceptable, however I believe that, as ever, there are rules on when you can lie and what you can lie about

[grumbler]

Seriously-- what makes you think the nutbars won't take the oath & then promptly ignore it, laughing at its irrelevance to their culture/religion?

Seriously-- what makes you think a public renunciation of the policy of punishing apostasy is irrelevant to any particular Muslim culture?  Most Muslims in the Western world, of course, recognize that such policies are neither Islamic nor tenable in a western society, but the Muslims France wants to keep out are not those kinds of Muslims.

The repeated unsubstantiated assertion that Muslims can lie to non-Muslims about Islam without qualms makes me wonder if languish has drained the critical thinking skills from the majority of its members.

[grumbler]

I don't see how an oath will stop anyone. Being deeply religious doesn't make one any more honest, especially if one believes that God expressly permits lying to non-believers.

[grumbler]

I don't know whether the Koran has some story about how lying is a cool thing under some circumstances; I do know that Shi'ites (but not Sunnis) are allowed to lie about their faith to save their lives. 

This is the concept of, I believe, taqiyya.  It's only allowed in certain circumstances, to save their life or the lives of others and if someone else will lose their life because of the lie it's forbidden.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the story that "Mohamed backstabbed the jews with some peace treaty and how that was like the coolest thing to do" was the product of some anti-Muslim bigot.

I believe it's based on the story that the Hijra to Medina was based on a treaty between Mohamed and some Jewish tribes, it basically placed Mohamed as a jurist for inter-Jewish disputes and promised to work together.  When the Meccans attacked Medina one of the tribes betrayed Mohamed because the Meccans promised them control over Medina and they were massacred.  It's mentioned pretty briefly in the Quran the rest is histories and stories around it, so no-one's terribly sure what happened. 

It's never to my knowledge been used within Islam as an example of it being okay to lie so you can take over a society.  Some Sunni hadiths suggest that lying can be acceptable, however I believe that, as ever, there are rules on when you can lie and what you can lie about

I believe that you are wasting your breath.  The meme has taken hold and I don't think mere facts will change anyone's mind.

[Sheilbh]

I believe that you are wasting your breath.  The meme has taken hold and I don't think mere facts will change anyone's mind.

I think you're probably right.  This reminds me of when I read a book about the Jesuit missions to Elizabethan England and the fear that they were allowed to 'equivocate' and, effectively, lie to protect their mission.

[DontSayBanana]

Grumbler, there's theoretically nothing wrong with your assertion.  The practical issue is that you and Sheilbh are boiling things down to 100% followers and 100% non-followers.  As I've understood it, the typical problem with muslims already comes from followers of Islam who've perverted the "proper" practices.

That said, I do see some practicality to your suggestion, though probably not what you intended- while it probably wouldn't help the assimilation phase, it might make deportation of the wacky ones slightly easier after the fact.

[Ancient Demon]

Who are you again?

My name was Zagys in the old forum.

[derspiess]

This is the concept of, I believe, taqiyya.  It's only allowed in certain circumstances, to save their life or the lives of others and if someone else will lose their life because of the lie it's forbidden.

I've heard of a fatwa that expanded this to something along the lines of it being okay to lie to non-muslims if it serves the purpose of a jihad.