Unusual issue popped up at work

[PDH]

Until we figure out a way to change genetics, legal sex will always be (throwing out the outliers) XX or XY. 

Legal gender can be whatever the fuck society wants to decided it might be - number, name, role, duties, whatever.

[DisturbedPervert]

Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military.  In the UK the military will pay for the surgery   

[Martinus]

Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military.  In the UK the military will pay for the surgery   

Why the  face?

[DisturbedPervert]

Why the  face?

The contrast amuses me

[grumbler]

Until we figure out a way to change genetics, legal sex will always be (throwing out the outliers) XX or XY. 

Legal gender can be whatever the fuck society wants to decided it might be - number, name, role, duties, whatever.

Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."

For instance, can a person who has undergone a "sex change operation" be banned from schools that allow only women, or from the women's sports teams of any school?  Does such a person, when participating in sports, count as a man or a woman for the purposes of Title IX?

These are real-life legal kinds of situations, and I have no idea what the answer is.  I am confused as to what you are basing your definitions of "legal sex" and "legal gender" on.  Not syaing you are wrong, just saying that you need to document your assertions a little bit.  You answer to "what does the law say" with regard to gender, "whatever the fuck society wants to decide" seems particularly vague.

[grumbler]

Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military.  In the UK the military will pay for the surgery   

But can they serve in the British forces after the change?

[ulmont]

Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."

It appears to be case by case.  Federal prisons assign pre-op transsexuals according to their birth sex, and post-op according to their operative sex.  The Social Security Administration will amend its records upon a showing of sex-reassignment surgery, and some states will reissue birth certificates.  On the other hand, a transsexual can't get legally married in Kansas except with someone opposite to their birth sex.

Take a look at http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4682038568110825067&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000 and http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14985365890168523124&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000

[grumbler]

Not sure we have the same concept of "legal" here. I am talking about "according to the law."

It appears to be case by case.  Federal prisons assign pre-op transsexuals according to their birth sex, and post-op according to their operative sex.  The Social Security Administration will amend its records upon a showing of sex-reassignment surgery, and some states will reissue birth certificates.  On the other hand, a transsexual can't get legally married in Kansas except with someone opposite to their birth sex.

Take a look at http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4682038568110825067&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000 and http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=14985365890168523124&q=%22sex+change%22++&hl=en&as_sdt=2002&as_ylo=2000

Thanks.  That first case in particular addressed a lot of my questions.  The second was instructive mostly in terms of the impact of puritan language in a purportedly secular law.

[Martinus]

Anyway, people who get sex change operations, get their birth certificate, passport, etc changed to female, apparently can't join the US military.  In the UK the military will pay for the surgery   

But can they serve in the British forces after the change?

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/terms/15703.aspx

[Sheilbh]

In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected.  Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.

[grumbler]

In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected.  Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.

What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?"  Is sex used, as far as you are aware,  anywhere in the law that gender is not?

[citizen k]

In the UK the law is against gender discrimination (not sex discrimination) and transsexuals/transgender people count as a third gender who are equally protected.  Though, legally, I believe their sex remains the same regardless of treatment.

What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?"  Is sex used, as far as you are aware,  anywhere in the law that gender is not?

You've been very involved in this thread, Grumbler. Are you thinking of making the change?

[Sheilbh]

What are the implications of the fact (if your belief is correct) that "legally... their sex remains the same regardless of treatment?"  Is sex used, as far as you are aware,  anywhere in the law that gender is not?

Sorry I'm out of date.  We have a 'Gender Recognition Act' which allows people to, in effect, get a new birth certificate reflecting their new name and gender.  But there's rules on who can apply for it.  The certificate is apparently treated like it is in adoption, in a separate government registry so that only you have access to it, or people you give permission to (for example a doctor) or the police if you're being investigated.  To the general public looking at the registry of births you will always have been whatever gender you transitioned into.

Edit:  And if it happens and they're married then their marriage is automatically turned into a civil union.

[grumbler]

You've been very involved in this thread, Grumbler. Are you thinking of making the change?

No, it just is a legal issue I have never thought about before, and is exactly the kind of "technological issue" for which the common law offers no help. It struck me that (as the Kansas marriage issue demonstrates) this is something that would have to be explicitly legislated, but I cannot imagine many legislators wanting to get in front on the issue.

So, I am curious as to actual status.

[grumbler]

Sorry I'm out of date.  We have a 'Gender Recognition Act' which allows people to, in effect, get a new birth certificate reflecting their new name and gender.  But there's rules on who can apply for it.  The certificate is apparently treated like it is in adoption, in a separate government registry so that only you have access to it, or people you give permission to (for example a doctor) or the police if you're being investigated.  To the general public looking at the registry of births you will always have been whatever gender you transitioned into.

Edit:  And if it happens and they're married then their marriage is automatically turned into a civil union.

Seems pretty comprehensive.  Do you happen to know how old this legislation is?