Obama to double down if Brown wins.

[KRonn]

Or likely a combination of all types. Principled anit-porkists<snip>

Then it would likely be a first in US history.

Yeah, we seem to complain about pork spending, but still expect to get some of it brought back to our states. But really, so often it gets done so badly that I'd hope people do seriously want some reforms in that process. With Nelson's pay off it was a biggie, giving his state freebies on Medicaid, paid for by the rest of us. That hit people upside the head, on top of what else similar had been going on.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah, we seem to complain about pork spending, but still expect to get some of it brought back to our states. But really, so often it gets done so badly that I'd hope people do seriously want some reforms in that process. With Nelson's pay off it was a biggie, giving his state freebies on Medicaid, paid for by the rest of us. That hit people upside the head, on top of what else similar had been going on.

I was trying to be polite.   I think it's bullshit.  Good government anti pork types don't do public demonstrations.  Some of the Tea Baggers harrassing Nelson may have made noise about the Medicare bribe for Nebraska as a means of broadening their appeal, much like the way Michael Moore professed undying devotion to the plight of American fighting men and women while protesting the Iraq war.

[KRonn]

I think it's good that Nelson is getting lots of heat, from inside his state to outside of it, for that nasty deal he got. Governor Arnold of Cali blasted it, as have others. If a few tea baggers bring it up too, then fine. The process of legislation has become a real sore spot to so many people, whether we agree with the agendas of some of those people/groups or not.

[Vince]

Since when has bringing massive amounts of pork to your home state been a disadvantage?

The political climate has changed.  Pork has never been popular, except for a very narrow special interest that benefitted from it, but the broad majority, while not liking it, didn't really care about it one way or another since it didn't effect them.  A hypermotivated small minority trumps a disinterested majority.

However, the economy, the massive deficits, and the massive amount of corruption so evident in the last year has created a poisonous atmosphere for such deals.  Suddenly the formerly disinterested majority is hypermotivated. Senator Ben Nelson found out recently when he was chased out of a restaurant in his native Nebraska for accepting a Medicaid payoff for his vote.  Most politicians haven't really caught on yet to the changing realities, which will probably result in a lot of "safe" incumbents losing their seats in November.

Everyone hates pork except for the pork that flows into their own district.   

[Sheilbh]

Or likely a combination of all types. Principled anit-porkists<snip>

Then it would likely be a first in US history.

I don't actually see how a system like the US could lack pork.  If you have a small legislative chamber, that requires a high number of votes and lack strong central parties/whipping then surely pork's pretty inevitable?

I've said before that I don't know what Americans want.  Half the time they love the strong, principled leaders and politicians who are, more often than not, on the left or the right but are like signposts, moaning about the weathervane politicians of the moderate wings (rather than centrists) who cut deals, compromise, negotiate and wheel and deal - the other time they decry partisanship and the inability of Congress to make deals, or compromise, or negotiate.  I think the former is comparatively more like a parliamentary system (and more like the House) with two diametrically opposed parties that generally have a coherent ideology, while the latter's always going to be corrupt but will retain more independent legislators and look a lot like the Senate.

It seems like Jim deMint and Ben Nelson are both what's worst in the Senate and what's best.

[Admiral Yi]

Pork is essential for the passage of legislation that enjoys less than majority support.  Maybe we shouldn't be passing those bills.

[DGuller]

Pork is essential for the passage of legislation that enjoys less than majority support.  Maybe we shouldn't be passing those bills.

So, are you suggesting that the Congress do nothing other than pass the "Jesus is wonderful!" resolutions?

[Ed Anger]

I love pork. I'd be annoyed if my congresscritter didn't bring home the bacon to the district.

[Admiral Yi]

So, are you suggesting that the Congress do nothing other than pass the "Jesus is wonderful!" resolutions?

So, are you suggesting the only thing a majority of Congressmen are in favor of is Jesus is wonderful resolutions?

[DGuller]

So, are you suggesting that the Congress do nothing other than pass the "Jesus is wonderful!" resolutions?

So, are you suggesting the only thing a majority of Congressmen are in favor of is Jesus is wonderful resolutions?

No, of course not.  I'm sure Democrats can flip some Republicans on "Terrorism is bad!" and "Terrorists are evil!" resolutions as well.

[alfred russel]

I don't actually see how a system like the US could lack pork.  If you have a small legislative chamber, that requires a high number of votes and lack strong central parties/whipping then surely pork's pretty inevitable?

You could have a line item veto.

[Admiral Yi]

No, of course not.  I'm sure Democrats can flip some Republicans on "Terrorism is bad!" and "Terrorists are evil!" resolutions as well.

What do they need to flip some Republicans for?  Up until the Massachessetts election they could have passed those resolutions by themselves.

[DGuller]

No, of course not.  I'm sure Democrats can flip some Republicans on "Terrorism is bad!" and "Terrorists are evil!" resolutions as well.

What do they need to flip some Republicans for?  Up until the Massachessetts election they could have passed those resolutions by themselves.

As I've said numerous times before, some Democrats may as well be Republicans.  Their only contribution was to the impression that Democrats have the supermajority, when in practical terms they didn't.

[Admiral Yi]

As I've said numerous times before, some Democrats may as well be Republicans.  Their only contribution was to the impression that Democrats have the supermajority, when in practical terms they didn't.

Your point is taken, although it's interesting that the litmus test you are suggesting for true Democratic-ness is willingness to vote for Obama's health care plan.

But surely if you think hard enough you can come up with one or two examples of Congress voting for a bill without the added inducement of pork.

[Sheilbh]

Pork is essential for the passage of legislation that enjoys less than majority support.  Maybe we shouldn't be passing those bills.

Yes but the majority required in the US legislature is 60% which is unusual.  And I think this effectively makes reform of anything impossible.  At least in continental Europe with parties and coalitions and consensus you can build a majority to change something.  In the UK we accept that our elected dictatorship will only, at best, have the support of around 40% of the people but they'll have 50%+1 seats, which is all they need.  How does the US practically reform anything, especially anything popular?

To give an example, in the UK all major parties have agreed that the pension age has to rise, because we can't afford it otherwise - so they're all committed to raising it to 68 and there's talk of 70.  The only disagreement is the speed and even then it's a practical difference of 4-5 years.  I believe in other continental European countries there's been a similar consensus reached.  Our pension plans aren't sustainable so they have to go up.  Though it may be unpopular that'll pass (not least because people my age expect that we'll work until 70 before we get a state pension, if we get one at all).  How will the US reform social security?

Your proposal sounds to me like Congress should spend enormous times doing very little except what's more or less popular - regardless of cost - except for occassional periods of crisis when it might have to make some changes.