American Innumeracy

[DGuller]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

[merithyn]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

Fields which make use of trigonometry or trigonometric functions include astronomy (especially, for locating the apparent positions of celestial objects, in which spherical trigonometry is essential) and hence navigation (on the oceans, in aircraft, and in space), music theory, acoustics, optics, analysis of financial markets, electronics, probability theory, statistics, biology, medical imaging (CAT scans and ultrasound), pharmacy, chemistry, number theory (and hence cryptology), seismology, meteorology, oceanography, many physical sciences, land surveying and geodesy, architecture, phonetics, economics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, computer graphics, cartography, crystallography and game development.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_trigonometry

My understanding of Trig is that it's the building block to Calculus, which is actually what's used in those fields. In other words, you learn the theory in Trig and the application in Calc. If I'm mistaken, I again blame my 10th-grade math teacher.

[merithyn]

I get math, but that wasn't quite my point.  She seems to think that "not getting" it allows her to not put any more effort into than she wants.  I would rather see her in tears because she is trying so hard, as opposed to just giving up.

Finding a way that makes sense to her will help her try. I've found that those who "get" math don't understand what I don't "get" about it. To them, do this, this, and this, and voila! You've got the answer! For me, it's "Why am I doing that? What will it do? How does that work?" If you can't answer those questions clearly, none of it will make sense to me.

[Berkut]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

Fields which make use of trigonometry or trigonometric functions include astronomy (especially, for locating the apparent positions of celestial objects, in which spherical trigonometry is essential) and hence navigation (on the oceans, in aircraft, and in space), music theory, acoustics, optics, analysis of financial markets, electronics, probability theory, statistics, biology, medical imaging (CAT scans and ultrasound), pharmacy, chemistry, number theory (and hence cryptology), seismology, meteorology, oceanography, many physical sciences, land surveying and geodesy, architecture, phonetics, economics, electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, computer graphics, cartography, crystallography and game development.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_trigonometry

My understanding of Trig is that it's the building block to Calculus, which is actually what's used in those fields. In other words, you learn the theory in Trig and the application in Calc. If I'm mistaken, I again blame my 10th-grade math teacher.

What is interesting is that your response to the thread, IMO, points to the *real* problem - people all too willing to blame anyone but themselves for their failure to learn.

Johnny cannot understand math, so I guess it is the teachers fault, they should be more "flexible" and change the curriculum (read: dumb it down) so Johnny can get an A too!

[merithyn]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

This really helps me want to learn this. And you "math geeks" wonder why we give up.

[Berkut]

I suspect that every time in the past when X% of the students fail their math assessment test, and we change the test, or change the teaching to address those X%, we end up fucking the 100-X% who did NOT fail the damn test or assessment.

And that just feeds on itself - this idea that if only we had the right system, why, *everyone* can succeed! And if *everyone* is NOT succeeding, we had better change the system to cater more and more and more to the lowest performers.

And now we wonder why more and more people think it is a-ok to fail at math in any practical sense.

[DGuller]

My understanding of Trig is that it's the building block to Calculus, which is actually what's used in those fields. In other words, you learn the theory in Trig and the application in Calc. If I'm mistaken, I again blame my 10th-grade math teacher.

If your apportionment of blame is accurate, then your 10th grade math teacher should be executed. 

The building block of calculus is the concept of a limit.  There is some trigonometry in calculus, of course, but I don't see how it's a building block.  Trigonometry has a number of very direct, and not that complicated, applications.  In short, it's about relationship between angles and distances, two things that we encounter all the time.

EDIT:  Now that I think about it, trigonometry is a building block of complex analysis.  It's supremely useful in many applications, but that's not the kind of calculus we normally think of.

[merithyn]

What is interesting is that your response to the thread, IMO, points to the *real* problem - people all too willing to blame anyone but themselves for their failure to learn.

Johnny cannot understand math, so I guess it is the teachers fault, they should be more "flexible" and change the curriculum (read: dumb it down) so Johnny can get an A too!

That's what you got from my post? 

Then I wasn't very clear. As I've said, I have struggled - as in, I've put in vast amounts of work trying to learn this stuff - with math my entire life. I hate not "getting" it. When everything else comes so easy, it's a huge blow to not be able to just "get" something. So I've worked very hard on it. And yet, I still don't do math well. I have never been able to understand Trigonometry, despite working at it. I hate the subject because none of it makes any sense to me at all.

Yes, I blame the way it is taught. At least, the way it was taught to me, and the way I've seen it taught to my two eldest sons. If we don't just "get" it, the teachers wash their hands of it. Either we get it, or we don't, and if we don't, the teachers don't bother working at it with us.

I'm not sure how that's putting all of the blame on the teachers, nor how that's asking for them to "dumb it down" so that I can get an A. What I'm saying is that the way a subject is taught, as in all things from a foreign language to history to English Literature, will affect how a student reacts to it. If the overriding attitude of the teacher is, "Well, you don't get it, too bad," well, then that will be the same attitude of the student.

[merithyn]

I suspect that every time in the past when X% of the students fail their math assessment test, and we change the test, or change the teaching to address those X%, we end up fucking the 100-X% who did NOT fail the damn test or assessment.

And that just feeds on itself - this idea that if only we had the right system, why, *everyone* can succeed! And if *everyone* is NOT succeeding, we had better change the system to cater more and more and more to the lowest performers.

And now we wonder why more and more people think it is a-ok to fail at math in any practical sense.

I would argue that there is more than one way to teach a lesson, and using all of those ways in the same class will reach more students. I would never advocate changing something that works and not using it, but I would certainly advocate using other methods as well.

[dps]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

This really helps me want to learn this. And you "math geeks" wonder why we give up.

And what would you want him to say to get you to want to learn it?

And while there are certainly poor teachers and poor schools out there, the fact is that the resources exist to learn almost anything one might want to learn, if one is willing to devote the time and effort, and has a modicum of intelligence.

[Berkut]

Sure, I suppose it could be the case that in the three examples from you personal life where people failed to "get it", the fault was with three different teachers, rather than any of the actual students involved, or their parents.

I would guess that if those three teachers all saw your post, every single one would disagree that their attitude was "Well, you don't get it, too bad".

[merithyn]

My understanding of Trig is that it's the building block to Calculus, which is actually what's used in those fields. In other words, you learn the theory in Trig and the application in Calc. If I'm mistaken, I again blame my 10th-grade math teacher.

If your apportionment of blame is accurate, then your 10th grade math teacher should be executed. 

The building block of calculus is the concept of a limit.  There is some trigonometry in calculus, of course, but I don't see how it's a building block.  Trigonometry has a number of very direct, and not that complicated, applications.  In short, it's about relationship between angles and distances, two things that we encounter all the time.

EDIT:  Now that I think about it, trigonometry is a building block of complex analysis.  It's supremely useful in many applications, but that's not the kind of calculus we normally think of.

Until Max told me, I had no idea that it was trigonometry that was used to calculate how a bridge should be placed across a river. When I asked in class about what sine, cosine, etc., meant, I was told that it was theory and I would just need to memorize how to use it. What it was wasn't important.

[Eddie Teach]

http://rlrr.drum-corps.net/weirdness/1116

[DGuller]

And Trigonometry is all theory, which has no basis in real-world applications

This really helps me want to learn this. And you "math geeks" wonder why we give up.

Sorry, this is out of character for me.  I usually go out of my way to not mock people for faulty understanding of math, having worked for a number of years as a math tutor in college. 

It's just that your statement was way out there, and I dropped my guard.  It's like saying that automobile is an impractical curiosity.  Trigonometry is one of those branches that is actually extremely applicable to the real world, from the very basics to the very advanced stuff. 

[merithyn]

And what would you want him to say to get you to want to learn it?

And while there are certainly poor teachers and poor schools out there, the fact is that the resources exist to learn almost anything one might want to learn, if one is willing to devote the time and effort, and has a modicum of intelligence.

And yet, I have a relatively high IQ, have devoted time and effort to it, and still do not understand it. Given the number of "relatively intelligent" people in the U.S., I suggest that I am not alone in this.

Sure, I suppose it could be the case that in the three examples from you personal life where people failed to "get it", the fault was with three different teachers, rather than any of the actual students involved, or their parents.

I would guess that if those three teachers all saw your post, every single one would disagree that their attitude was "Well, you don't get it, too bad".

Just out of curiosity, do you "get" math? Is it a relatively easy subject for you?