American Innumeracy

[Razgovory]

Think about this Meri.  Do you want your children to grow up and be like Berkut and Dguller?

[Berkut]

I do ok - I would say I "get it", but I am not a prodigy or anything.

I don't disbelieve that you struggle with math, I just think the attitude of "Oh, math is hard for me, so they should change the curriculum so I can succeed too!", which appears to be your position, is in fact why we see declining math scores in many cases - the desire to see everyone succeed, at a cost to those who were already having success.

And, to be completely blunt, I  suspect that in the majority of cases, people who don't "get it" but are otherwise pretty bright are most likely to just not "get" the work involved. Studies have shown that IQ is pretty general - people who do well in one subject tend to do well in all subjects. I think most people who don't "get it" mostly just don't like it, which isn't the same thing at all.

But mostly I was just responding to your tone of "I don't "get" math, and neither do my kids, and it is those damn teachers fault!". Fuck that. Plenty of teachers suck, but if you go around blaming your failures on mediocre teachers, you aren't ever going to succeed - there will always be some damn teacher who will be a handy excuse for your failure, if that is what you are looking for.

For the record, I got a D in Algebra II in high school, because I was a lazy git who didn't want to do any work. That was in 10th grade, the only D I got in high school. I quit taking math classes at that point in HS because I was a lazy git, and paid the price for that once I started my CS degree, and had to make up for a lot of lost ground, since I should have already taken both trig and calculus.

But I sure as hell am not going to blame that on my teachers - that was all me, and to a lesser extent my parents for not paying attention to what I was doing, and not asking in my junior and senior years of HS "Hey, why in the hell aren't you taking any math classes?". But wtf, I was the only kid who actually made it through HS in my family, until my younger sister, so its not like they were paying attention to me.

[DGuller]

I do think that "getting math" is a phenomenon worth discussing.  Personally, even when I was a C student in Soviet Union, math was something that just made perfect sense to me, and something I could get an A in without any effort.  Starting from 1st grade, and all the way to the end of college, I never really had to struggle for understanding (although by the time of my senior year in college I felt like I was starting to reach the limit of my potential). 

If I didn't start out that way, I have no idea what I would need to do to get up to speed.  Maybe ability to get math is just a result of some chance development of the brain at a really young age.

[merithyn]

I don't disbelieve that you struggle with math, I just think the attitude of "Oh, math is hard for me, so they should change the curriculum so I can succeed too!", which appears to be your position, is in fact why we see declining math scores in many cases - the desire to see everyone succeed, at a cost to those who were already having success.

Not the curriculum, how it's taught. There's a difference.

Surely you've heard of the theory of varying ways of learning? Kinesthetics, Visual, and Auditory?  It's been applied in most subjects... except math beyond the elementary level. At least, that's the discussion in this area. It's been a source of aggravation for several of our math teachers at the middle school level, as they have limited resources to go beyond what's laid out for them by the district.

EDIT: and check your PMs

[crazy canuck]

Just out of curiosity, do you "get" math? Is it a relatively easy subject for you?

This is a terrible excuse Meri.  People dont just "get" something.  Math is something that is learned.  You dont just get it.  Which is really the problem isnt it.

[garbon]

Not the curriculum, how it's taught. There's a difference.

Surely you've heard of the theory of varying ways of learning? Kinesthetics, Visual, and Auditory?  It's been applied in most subjects... except math beyond the elementary level. At least, that's the discussion in this area. It's been a source of aggravation for several of our math teachers at the middle school level, as they have limited resources to go beyond what's laid out for them by the district.

Sounds like excuses. I need pretty colors and music to understand math!

[crazy canuck]

Maybe ability to get math is just a result of some chance development of the brain at a really young age.

More likely it is the chance development of a person actually learning the basics and then building from there.

I was a C student in math until my high school basketball coach informed me that I needed to pull up my grades to keep playing.  I studied for the next test and got close to 100%.  Everyone is different obviosly but I really hate the excuse that a person cant learn math because their brain isnt wired that way.

[jimmy olsen]

Just out of curiosity, do you "get" math? Is it a relatively easy subject for you?

This is a terrible excuse Meri.  People dont just "get" something.  Math is something that is learned.  You dont just get it.  Which is really the problem isnt it.

I know some math teachers who have the attitude she describes, that math is something that student's either have an innate aptitude or they don't.

[crazy canuck]

I know some math teachers who have the attitude she has, that math is something that student's either have an innate aptitude or they don't.

Great.  So now we have teachers feeding into the failure of students who dont "get" it. 

[merithyn]

I do think that "getting math" is a phenomenon worth discussing.  Personally, even when I was a C student in Soviet Union, math was something that just made perfect sense to me, and something I could get an A in without any effort.  Starting from 1st grade, and all the way to the end of college, I never really had to struggle for understanding (although by the time of my senior year in college I felt like I was starting to reach the limit of my potential). 

If I didn't start out that way, I have no idea what I would need to do to get up to speed.  Maybe ability to get math is just a result of some chance development of the brain at a really young age.

I "get" languages. I've studied Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Welsh, German, and Latin. I'm not fluent in any of them, but I never had a problem understanding how the language works grammatically, etc. With a little time learning vocabulary, I've little doubt that I could pick up several in a conversational way in a fairly short time.

At the same time, I understand that this is not the case for everyone. I know plenty of people who seriously struggle to get the concepts of English grammar as a native speaker, while I barely think of them anymore. Hell, half the time I can't even explain why something is what it is anymore, but I know it to be true. My vocabulary is considered extensive, and often times I have to backtrack and "dumb down" what I'm saying so that others "get" it.

This is how math is for some people. They understand it at such a level that trying to explain it isn't possible. I know that Max is like that. When I ask why something is what it is, he gets a blank look on his face for a few minutes. He no longer has to think about the whys, whereas I'm still at that point. While he's working out Calc IV problems, I'm trying to work out the radius of a circle knowing the circumference.

The biggest problem, from my perspective, is that those who "get" math have a hard time understanding those who don'ts limitations. And those who "get" math are the ones who usually teach it.

[dps]

I don't disbelieve that you struggle with math, I just think the attitude of "Oh, math is hard for me, so they should change the curriculum so I can succeed too!", which appears to be your position, is in fact why we see declining math scores in many cases - the desire to see everyone succeed, at a cost to those who were already having success.

Not the curriculum, how it's taught. There's a difference.

Surely you've heard of the theory of varying ways of learning? Kinesthetics, Visual, and Auditory?  It's been applied in most subjects... except math beyond the elementary level. At least, that's the discussion in this area. It's been a source of aggravation for several of our math teachers at the middle school level, as they have limited resources to go beyond what's laid out for them by the district.

Meri, when I posted about there being resources available and putting time and effort into learning, you said that you had devoted time and effort to learning math.  But I don't think you realized that I was referring to doing independent reading and studying, because you're still talking about teaching methods, which really don't apply to you putting the time and effort into something to become self-taught.

[merithyn]

I know some math teachers who have the attitude she has, that math is something that student's either have an innate aptitude or they don't.

Great.  So now we have teachers feeding into the failure of students who dont "get" it.

And when teachers feed it, students eat it up, creating a vicious cycle.

I don't believe that most people can't learn it. I do believe, however, that the way it's taught makes a huge difference in a person's ability to grasp the concepts. And I do believe that there are those with an innate ability that others may lack. Not just in math, but in other subjects as well.

[merithyn]

Sounds like excuses. I need pretty colors and music to understand math!

It's a sound education theory. Because you've never heard it, doesn't mean it wasn't applied to you, and that you didn't benefit from it.

[Brazen]

Only 13% of British children can carry out basic mathematics. The other 92% are effectively innumerate.

[merithyn]

More likely it is the chance development of a person actually learning the basics and then building from there.

I was a C student in math until my high school basketball coach informed me that I needed to pull up my grades to keep playing.  I studied for the next test and got close to 100%.  Everyone is different obviosly but I really hate the excuse that a person cant learn math because their brain isnt wired that way.

I'm not sure I can explain this any more clear than I already have. While I'm fully capable of memorizing the basics and applying them, I do not understand how the theories work. I don't get why math works, and if I don't understand that, I can't remember it enough to use it at the next level.