Terror attack foiled on Northwest Airlines flight

Started by Weatherman, December 25, 2009, 06:45:46 PM

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DGuller

Terrorism succeeds when it provokes people to over-react.  Looks like the guy toasting his balls scored a big one.  Sigh, when will people learn?

Berkut

I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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DGuller

Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 11:34:13 AM
I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
This is a superficial way to look at it.  Killing is a means to terrorize.  It's not like a reducing the western population by hundreds or even thousands is going to yield the terrorists a whole lot of benefits directly.  Forcing us to over-react and waste tens of billions, if not hundreds of billions, now that's a measurable impact.  Making us constantly think of a threat of being killed by them, that's also a victory.

Berkut

Quote from: DGuller on December 28, 2009, 11:43:27 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 11:34:13 AM
I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
This is a superficial way to look at it.  Killing is a means to terrorize.  It's not like a reducing the western population by hundreds or even thousands is going to yield the terrorists a whole lot of benefits directly.  Forcing us to over-react and waste tens of billions, if not hundreds of billions, now that's a measurable impact.  Making us constantly think of a threat of being killed by them, that's also a victory.

Yeah, but I dispute the idea that the measures taken to prevent someone blowing up a plane are so vastly outrageous comapred ot the damage done when they actually successfully pull off a spectacular attack.

For all the bitching about increased security, when I fly it isn't really any different than it ever has been, not as a result of increased security anyway. Almost all problems I have when flying have nothing to do with security at all - delayed flights, lost luggage, crowded airports, etc., etc.

I think people grossly exaggerate how horrific increased security measures really are. The reality is that you still go pay some price for a ticket, and that price is almost completely driven by economic realities having nothing to do with security, like fuel costs and such. You go to the airport, get on a plane, and it flies you where you want to go. Nothing has really changed in any fundamental way.

People are going to bitch about guys like this guy slipping throught the cracks, but you know what? There will be more. And it isn't because the TSA is terribly incompetent - or rather, it isn't that there is any real way to make it any more competent than it is, by and large. Millions of people fly every day, and there isn't going to be any system that will allow that to continue in any kind of reasonable manner that will not also involve the occasional butjob finding a hole.

If nothing else, simply testing the security measures over and over again will eventually see someone screw up and let something through. That is simple odds.

The reality is that it is, apparently, pretty damn hard to actually successfully take down an aircraft these days - at least, it hardly ever seems to happen, so apparently they are doing something right.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Josephus

It's never been that easy to take down an aircraft, which is why these security measures are a band-aid solution that make flying a pain in the arse.

You can only have liquid in 100 ml bottles...but you can have ten of those if you want. Seriously. WTF?

Even before 9/11 planes weren't falling out of the sky everyday. I fly fairly frequently, and, trust me, it's becoming a pain in the ass, and each time some nutbar tries to do something, they ramp the security a notch until in a decade or so we're all gonna have to fly naked.
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Razgovory

Quote from: DGuller on December 28, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
Terrorism succeeds when it provokes people to over-react.  Looks like the guy toasting his balls scored a big one.  Sigh, when will people learn?

Al-Qaida doesn't engage in terrorism in the classic way we know.  It's not a propaganda of the deed type thing.  It's closer to guerrilla war at a distance.  Anyway, what way or people over-reacting?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Berkut

Quote from: Josephus on December 28, 2009, 12:05:11 PM
It's never been that easy to take down an aircraft, which is why these security measures are a band-aid solution that make flying a pain in the arse.

You can only have liquid in 100 ml bottles...but you can have ten of those if you want. Seriously. WTF?

Even before 9/11 planes weren't falling out of the sky everyday. I fly fairly frequently, and, trust me, it's becoming a pain in the ass, and each time some nutbar tries to do something, they ramp the security a notch until in a decade or so we're all gonna have to fly naked.

So your big bitch is that you can't have liquids in bottles of more than 100ml?

That seems pretty trivial to me.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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jimmy olsen

Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 11:34:13 AM
I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
The aim of terrorism is not merely to kill someone, but to cause some sort of change in the political or religious policy of the target. They don't have to kill people to succeed, just scare people enough and they can get what they want anyways.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
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Berkut

Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 28, 2009, 12:29:04 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 11:34:13 AM
I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
The aim of terrorism is not merely to kill someone, but to cause some sort of change in the political or religious policy of the target. They don't have to kill people to succeed, just scare people enough and they can get what they want anyways.

I find it hard to believe that what AQ wants is people to not be allowed to take more than 100ml bottles on planes.

I think it has something more to do with spreading radical Islam, or something.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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jimmy olsen

By the way, it's gonna be a total bitch for me to fly back, they already did all that new stuff to me when I left. I'll probably literally be strip searched next time, I'm gonna have to get there four hours early. :(
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

jimmy olsen

Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 12:31:33 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 28, 2009, 12:29:04 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 28, 2009, 11:34:13 AM
I think terrorism succeeds when they kill a bunch of people in some spectacular manner.

Why lower the bar for them?
The aim of terrorism is not merely to kill someone, but to cause some sort of change in the political or religious policy of the target. They don't have to kill people to succeed, just scare people enough and they can get what they want anyways.

I find it hard to believe that what AQ wants is people to not be allowed to take more than 100ml bottles on planes.

I think it has something more to do with spreading radical Islam, or something.
Destroying the open society of the west is another aim, and we're well on our way to cooperating. Just look at what England's turned into.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

DGuller

Quote from: Razgovory on December 28, 2009, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 28, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
Terrorism succeeds when it provokes people to over-react.  Looks like the guy toasting his balls scored a big one.  Sigh, when will people learn?

Al-Qaida doesn't engage in terrorism in the classic way we know.  It's not a propaganda of the deed type thing.  It's closer to guerrilla war at a distance.  Anyway, what way or people over-reacting?
Guerilla war is pretty much the same thing as terrorism, functionally speaking.  The strategic goal of the guerilla war is to not kill a lot of the enemy, but to complicate the life of the enemy, by sapping its resources and morale.

Berkut

Quote from: DGuller on December 28, 2009, 12:36:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 28, 2009, 12:07:49 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 28, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
Terrorism succeeds when it provokes people to over-react.  Looks like the guy toasting his balls scored a big one.  Sigh, when will people learn?

Al-Qaida doesn't engage in terrorism in the classic way we know.  It's not a propaganda of the deed type thing.  It's closer to guerrilla war at a distance.  Anyway, what way or people over-reacting?
Guerilla war is pretty much the same thing as terrorism, functionally speaking.  The strategic goal of the guerilla war is to not kill a lot of the enemy, but to complicate the life of the enemy, by sapping its resources and morale.

No, you are confusing means with ends. Nobody engages in any kind of war with the strategic goal of making life complicated for the enemy.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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DGuller

As far the question of costs, appart from the intangible indignities of having all those security checks, there is also a basic cost of time.  The more security checks there are, the more time you have to spend in the airport. 

Take hundreds of millions of passengers, multiply it by a couple of hours, multiply it by their cost of time, and pretty soon you're talking real money.  This is just talking about specific costs of airline security, and not the more general costs of conducting the "War on Terror".

Grallon

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on December 28, 2009, 04:49:56 AM
Agree with marti (and others); one tosser (on the terrorist watch lists) fails to do much but we hand anti-Western forces victory on a plate with retarded and disruptive security measures  :mad:

Sometimes I think we will lose this battle (despite our pathetic opponents); our responses are so unintelligent and pusillanimous  :(


So long as we won't address the core problem - allowing muslims to emigrate or travel to western countries - this will get worse.  It really is amazing to see so much obfuscation around that issue.  Islamic fundamentalism is a product of Islam - it's not seperate from it;  therefore we can't address that problem without also addressing the general problem of muslim culture. 

And we will remain pusillanimous in our responses so long as we won't admit that in some cases it may be warranted to discriminate - especially when you deal with people who won't hesitate to use and abuse liberal values to cause us grief.



G.



"Clearly, a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself."

~Jean-François Revel