Israeli organ borrowing revisited

[KRonn]

So, looks like the Israelis are starting early, getting with the new US health scare plan. 

[Valmy]

Also, Valmy, what the fuck are you talking about with "Israel doesn't bother to defend itself"???

After this article was originally published, Israel staged an international shitstorm, including official protests at the highest diplomatic levels. 

What they apparently don't bother with is showing evidence to families of the victims that they are only guilty of one crime, and not two.

That is exactly what I am fucking talking talking about.  They do not provide evidence or go into long explanations or show evidence of an internal investigation or whatever.  They tend to lash out defensively and handle whatever they decide to do inhouse.  They are a secretive bunch with a bunker mentality.

[Valmy]

Ok here you are getting unreasonable.

So only because Israel has been accused of evil for the last 60 years, they have no obligation to remedy the wrong done by their medical personal to very specific people, by providing a full disclosure of the wrongdoing that Israeli investigation prove to be true? 

I am only explaining why it is unrealistic to expect Israel to react as every other country does.  Do they have an obligation?  Fuck I do not even know if they have even carried out an investigation and if they have what they have done about it.  I am simply saying it is naive in the extreme to expect them to provide full disclosure about something and then I explained why I think that.

[Valmy]

Also Marty I think you misunderstand me entirely.  I am not saying Israel is doing the right thing, in fact I think Israel very rarely does the right thing.  However the record will show the few times they do do the right thing the world makes sure they fucking pay for it.  See: the Gaza pullout.  I do sort of wish Israel would see that full disclosure, cooperating and so forth are in their best interests but generally they suffer far more when they do do those things than when they do not.

The international community's policies towards Israel could not be more focused on continuing the fucked up situation over there better if they tried.  No good deed goes unpunished.

Of course Israel has its own problems.  You have to remember most of the Israelis came from Arab countries or The Soviet Union and that is reflected in alot of the ways their government works and the way they run it.  Secrecy is paramount.

[The Brain]

You have to remember most of the Israelis came from Arab countries or The Soviet Union

You really hate Jews don't you?

[Valmy]

You have to remember most of the Israelis came from Arab countries or The Soviet Union

You really hate Jews don't you?

Well let's just say I think Israel would be a better place if more American and French Jews moved there.

[Bluebook]

...and re-enforces the ever-popular stereotype of the dumb-as-rocks Swede

I understand Im putting myself at great peril to additionally reinforce this stereotype, but there is another side to this story that I have not seen much discussed.

The organ-stealing article has been very beneficial to Israel on the international diplomacy-side of things.

Consider this; Sweden became EU-president-nation on July 1st. Carl Bildt is our foreign minister and he has had very high ambitions to make a difference in the Israel-Palestine conflict. He is also known for his hardline stand on Israel. As Obama lost momentum and was tied down in domestic politics, the general idea was that the EU would pick up the torch in the peace process.   

The Swedish presidency takes off, Carl Bildt gears up for his peace-treaty-offensive, then the newspaper article hits. The Israelis go balistic, the Swedish ambassador says something controversial, we get a domestic debate, the Israelis demand an apology that we cannot give (anymore than the Danish could apologize for the Mohammed-cartoons). Things quickly deteriorate into a diplomatic quagmire. Carl Bildts trip to Israel is "rescheduled" or "postponed" (officially that is, the rumors off the record are that we were told that he would be refused entry if he showed up). Suddenly, the Swedish presidency is effectively neutered by this quasi-scandal. All of this benefits Israel greatly. The peace process is dead in the water with Obama still tied up domestically, the EU neutralized for now, and with Spain coming up as the next EU-presidency nothing is expected to happen...not to mention the faceless new EU foreign minister who is unlikely to ever do anything important.

All in all, this "scandal" has served Israel well, it effectively neutralized Bildt during the presidency.

[citizen k]

All in all, this "scandal" has served Israel well, it effectively neutralized Bildt during the presidency.

The status quo is not in Israel's best interests.

[Valmy]

The status quo is not in Israel's best interests.

It could be provided what the alternatives are.

[Barrister]

Consider this; Sweden became EU-president-nation on July 1st. Carl Bildt is our foreign minister and he has had very high ambitions to make a difference in the Israel-Palestine conflict. He is also known for his hardline stand on Israel. As Obama lost momentum and was tied down in domestic politics, the general idea was that the EU would pick up the torch in the peace process.   

[Malthus]

Quite wrong. You link speaks of "sales of body parts". That is also what the Aftonbladet article mentions as previously well known (have you read it? I linked to it earlier in the thread).

There is absolutely nothing in your link about harvesting Palestinians for organs.

Of course not; because until the Swedish article came out with its inflamatory and zero-evidence allegations, the identities of the cadavers whose organs were harvested without consent was irrelevant.

The Swedish article took a minor story about ethical violations in a pathology lab - allegations investigated a decade ago by the Israelis themselves - and blew it up into a major international incident through gullably swallowing a bunch of innuendo with absolutely no evidence to support it.

This no doubt delights the Slargoses of the world, and re-enforces the ever-popular stereotype of the dumb-as-rocks Swede (Slargos being the poster child for this ), but is hardly the occasion to start handing out an award for excellence in journalism. 

You are glue, etc.

Or rather, in a perfect world you would be.

Glue.

Or a lampshade.

Just as long as it is not a fucking Ikea lampshade named "EKÅS" or something retardedly Swedish like that.

'cause I have my standards.

[Malthus]

...and re-enforces the ever-popular stereotype of the dumb-as-rocks Swede

I understand Im putting myself at great peril to additionally reinforce this stereotype, but there is another side to this story that I have not seen much discussed.

The organ-stealing article has been very beneficial to Israel on the international diplomacy-side of things.

Consider this; Sweden became EU-president-nation on July 1st. Carl Bildt is our foreign minister and he has had very high ambitions to make a difference in the Israel-Palestine conflict. He is also known for his hardline stand on Israel. As Obama lost momentum and was tied down in domestic politics, the general idea was that the EU would pick up the torch in the peace process.   

The Swedish presidency takes off, Carl Bildt gears up for his peace-treaty-offensive, then the newspaper article hits. The Israelis go balistic, the Swedish ambassador says something controversial, we get a domestic debate, the Israelis demand an apology that we cannot give (anymore than the Danish could apologize for the Mohammed-cartoons). Things quickly deteriorate into a diplomatic quagmire. Carl Bildts trip to Israel is "rescheduled" or "postponed" (officially that is, the rumors off the record are that we were told that he would be refused entry if he showed up). Suddenly, the Swedish presidency is effectively neutered by this quasi-scandal. All of this benefits Israel greatly. The peace process is dead in the water with Obama still tied up domestically, the EU neutralized for now, and with Spain coming up as the next EU-presidency nothing is expected to happen...not to mention the faceless new EU foreign minister who is unlikely to ever do anything important.

All in all, this "scandal" has served Israel well, it effectively neutralized Bildt during the presidency.

As someone once said in another context: "they ain't that smart and they ain't that stupid". 

[It was the launch of New Coke, I believe]

Point of fact - the Israelis do not give a shit about the European Union's foreign policy, because it is utterly impotent. The notion that but for this incident the Swedish presidency would have kicked asses and taken names, and sorted out the whole Arab-Israeli mess to the disadvantage of Israel, thus necessitating manufacturing of such an incident - well, I hardly know where to begin. 

[Malthus]

Of course not; because until the Swedish article came out with its inflamatory and zero-evidence allegations, the identities of the cadavers whose organs were harvested without consent was irrelevant.

The Swedish article took a minor story about ethical violations in a pathology lab - allegations investigated a decade ago by the Israelis themselves - and blew it up into a major international incident through gullably swallowing a bunch of innuendo with absolutely no evidence to support it.

This no doubt delights the Slargoses of the world, and re-enforces the ever-popular stereotype of the dumb-as-rocks Swede (Slargos being the poster child for this ), but is hardly the occasion to start handing out an award for excellence in journalism. 

I would disagree with calling the original story "a minor story about ethical violations in a pathology lab", as it appeared to be a persistent pattern, and consent has long been held as necessary for organ donation.  As such, it was a major lapse and worthy of some comment.

Otherwise I agree with everything you said.

Oh, I agree. "Minor" only in the sense that it would be purely of domestic interest.

For example, there was a recent scandal here in Ontario about a foresnic pathologist who routinely made up results, leading to a bunch of people being falsely imprisioned on heinous charges (including moms convicted of murdering their babies). You may have heard of it, but I doubt it made the international news. It's a big deal, much bigger a deal than what this Israeli lab people are accused of, but still really only of domestic significance.

[Barrister]

Oh, I agree. "Minor" only in the sense that it would be purely of domestic interest.

For example, there was a recent scandal here in Ontario about a foresnic pathologist who routinely made up results, leading to a bunch of people being falsely imprisioned on heinous charges (including moms convicted of murdering their babies). You may have heard of it, but I doubt it made the international news. It's a big deal, much bigger a deal than what this Israeli lab people are accused of, but still really only of domestic significance.

As you might expect, I have heard *a lot* about Dr. Smith.  He didn't however "make up results", but he would draw conclusions (that he was quite sure of) that was unsupported by the actual evidence, and conclusions no other pathologist would draw.

I would hope the story would spread beyond Canada, as it's a powerful little cautionary tale.

[Valmy]

For example, there was a recent scandal here in Ontario about a foresnic pathologist who routinely made up results, leading to a bunch of people being falsely imprisioned on heinous charges (including moms convicted of murdering their babies). You may have heard of it, but I doubt it made the international news. It's a big deal, much bigger a deal than what this Israeli lab people are accused of, but still really only of domestic significance.

Yes but the Israelis didn't do it to Palestinians and thus it doesn't interest people much.