British Freedom of Speech withered, dying

[Berkut]

It isn't a theory, so how could it be an outmoded theory?

Sorry, I'm not up for word games this morning.  Concept, idea, metaphor, whatever.

It is no more outmoded a concept, theory, metaphor, idea, or whatever than the "salad bowl". They are both metaphors that attempt to describe what happens when people immigrate from one culture into a different one, and what happens to the host culture and the immigrating culture.

They are both right in some cases, and wrong in others - such is the nature of a metaphor. It is certainly the case that not every culture integrates and disappears completely, but it is also certainly the case that not every culture maintains itself without blending.

I would argue that the difference between the two metaphors is simply one of time. In the short run, it may look like a salad bowl, but in the long run they all blend together to make something new. The speed at which this happens is dependent on a variety of variables, but the end result is inevitable.

However, I think the salad bowl metaphor is, in large part, wishful thinking - how people want it to be, rather than how it actually is. It seems so nice, everyone gets to maintain their cultural identity forever, while we all mix together in peace and harmony, with a nice basalmic vinagrette! And croutons!

Cultural mixing and integration have been going on since cultures existed. The idea that they maintain some kind of identity and don't change is so consistently disproven throughout history, it is a wonder that people desperately hang on to that fiction.

[garbon]

An old salad begins to meld into one as it rots.

[Malthus]

An old salad begins to meld into one as it rots.

Or as it is consumed and digested. 

[BuddhaRhubarb]

I think the real "problem" with multiculturalism is that it's a crap term. Obviously nobody can agree on what it's supposed to mean. To me it means things like festivals and fairs that celebrate the diversity of the various Canadian (or American or whereverian that has large immigrant populations) peoples' roots.

A great example is Winnipeg's Folklorama, every August for a week or two, Every vaguely ethnic community in the city gets together in a hall or a gym somewhere and puts on cultural displays of their root culture (Yes natives participate too) ... You get a "passport" and go to as many of the pavilions as you can over that time, getting drunk in as many cultures as allow drinking, and eat lots of home cooked ethnic food.

There are great examples of these kinds of events all across the world. That to me is multiculturalism at work... legislating it and trying to make it part of the bureaucracy is missing the point.

If the various govs of the world want to embrace it, they need to do so in this way, festivals, ethnic community centres, (with useful things like ESL classes, and other classes to prepare newcomers for living (and learning about) in another culture, while still retaining  their own sense of where they are from.

[Richard Hakluyt]

In Switzerland they have the rather outmoded "fondue set", hence the problems with the minarets 

[crazy canuck]

In Switzerland they have the rather outmoded "fondue set", hence the problems with the minarets 

Their pots just are not big enough.

[Sheilbh]

grumbler, that cannot be true, because wiki said the melting pot was just a myth.

Lay off the 'just a myth' national myths are largely how national identity is created.  Myths aren't untrue, nor are they necessarily true and they're not just stories.  They're often a way for a society to explain itself to itself and are quite useful in terms of understanding how a people understand themselves.

I'd say the blitz spirit is a British national myth - which doesn't mean it's untrue or is just a story but that rather it's a more important element in the creation of British identity after the war.

[Jacob]

As an aside, the melting pot was once much more of an idea about change.  My maternal grandparents both came to the US speaking not a word of English, and yet the only Finnish words my mother learned were swear words.  My maternal grandparents decided that, as they were now Americans, they would speak only English, even to one another.  They still ate Finnish dishes and celebrated Finnish holidays, though.

Well that seems to fit exactly the change I'm talking about with earlier uses of the "melting pot" being about change, whereas now it is less so.  Some people have coined a different term for it, be it "multiculturalism" (in Canada, and some parts of the US?), "the sald bowl" (academia) but it seems we agree that that the expectations of how new immigrants integrate has changed from your parents' generation to what is happening now, whether we still refer to the integration process as a "melting pot" or not.

[crazy canuck]

Jacob,

To what extent to you think immigrants are expected to integrate?  Do you feel pressure to conform or do you feel the freedom to express your own culture?

[Jacob]

It is no more outmoded a concept, theory, metaphor, idea, or whatever than the "salad bowl". They are both metaphors that attempt to describe what happens when people immigrate from one culture into a different one, and what happens to the host culture and the immigrating culture.

They are both right in some cases, and wrong in others - such is the nature of a metaphor. It is certainly the case that not every culture integrates and disappears completely, but it is also certainly the case that not every culture maintains itself without blending.

I would argue that the difference between the two metaphors is simply one of time. In the short run, it may look like a salad bowl, but in the long run they all blend together to make something new. The speed at which this happens is dependent on a variety of variables, but the end result is inevitable.

However, I think the salad bowl metaphor is, in large part, wishful thinking - how people want it to be, rather than how it actually is. It seems so nice, everyone gets to maintain their cultural identity forever, while we all mix together in peace and harmony, with a nice basalmic vinagrette! And croutons!

Cultural mixing and integration have been going on since cultures existed. The idea that they maintain some kind of identity and don't change is so consistently disproven throughout history, it is a wonder that people desperately hang on to that fiction.

I agree that the "melting pot" and "salad bowl" metaphors describe different moments in time in the integration process, but I think the shift from one metaphor or myth is still somewhat significant.

The focus on different times in the process means that there are different expectations on how we deal with new immigrants even if the result is ultimately the same.

As I see it if we focus on the "melting pot" part of the process it gives greater opportunities for people to get angry at new immigrants for not integrating fast enough, while with the "salad bowl"/"multiculturalism" focus means it's okay that they don't go that fast

In either case the end result is that the descendants of new immigrants will be pretty much fully integrated and assimilated, barring a few culinary preferences and whatnot.  It might take two, three or four generations depending on the focus and pressures but that's okay.

[Capetan Mihali]

An old salad begins to meld into one as it rots.

Or as it is consumed and digested. 

As the Chinese take their place on line at the American salad bar....   

[Admiral Yi]

As the Chinese take their place on line

That would be a first.

[Jacob]

Jacob,

To what extent to you think immigrants are expected to integrate?  Do you feel pressure to conform or do you feel the freedom to express your own culture?

In Canada it seems to me that the pressure is fairly minimal outside a few basic things.  The official pressure is on things like individual rights, the unofficial pressure on learning the language (though there is some offical pressure as well, but I think the unofficial pressure is stronger).

Other than that I've never felt people were expecting me to become more Canadian than I was at any given time.  I didn't have what grumbler's grandparents did, the feeling that "I'm in Canada, I should be Canadian", neither internally nor externally.  I've always felt that whatever I was it was Canadian in and of itself and not contradicted by whatever part of me that was Danish.  But over the years that's still become more 'not-Danish' and more specific to my situation in Canada, if you see what I mean.  My kids are going to be very Canadian and that's not contradicted in the slightest by however much they're also going to be Chinese or Danish.  The pieces all fit together and overlap, without conflict.

So the short answer:  Outside a few not big but very crucial realms (rule of law, individual rights) there is not a lot of pressure to conform and a plenty of freedom to express your original identity, and that's cool.

[Berkut]

Jacob,

To what extent to you think immigrants are expected to integrate?  Do you feel pressure to conform or do you feel the freedom to express your own culture?

In Canada it seems to me that the pressure is fairly minimal outside a few basic things.  The official pressure is on things like individual rights, the unofficial pressure on learning the language (though there is some offical pressure as well, but I think the unofficial pressure is stronger).

Other than that I've never felt people were expecting me to become more Canadian than I was at any given time.  I didn't have what grumbler's grandparents did, the feeling that "I'm in Canada, I should be Canadian", neither internally nor externally.  I've always felt that whatever I was it was Canadian in and of itself and not contradicted by whatever part of me that was Danish.  But over the years that's still become more 'not-Danish' and more specific to my situation in Canada, if you see what I mean.  My kids are going to be very Canadian and that's not contradicted in the slightest by however much they're also going to be Chinese or Danish.  The pieces all fit together and overlap, without conflict.

So the short answer:  Outside a few not big but very crucial realms (rule of law, individual rights) there is not a lot of pressure to conform and a plenty of freedom to express your original identity, and that's cool.

Of course, you aren't really a good example of the pressure or problems. It's not like your Danish culture really clashes with Canadian mores or cultural norms anyway. You are a "good" immigrant in a very tolerant country.

I've never really understood the animosity people in the US, for example, hold towards Hispanic immigrants, and I come from the Southwest. Their culture is not particularly alien or anything. There are obvious economic issues with a lot of the illegal immigration, of course, but that doesn't really explain the anger and sometimes hatred though.

[crazy canuck]

Of course, you aren't really a good example of the pressure or problems. It's not like your Danish culture really clashes with Canadian mores or cultural norms anyway. You are a "good" immigrant in a very tolerant country.

One of the reasons I was wondering about Jacob's view is the one thing he does not benefit from, which a lot of other immigrants have, is an identifiable cultural community here in Vancouver.  There might be a Danish community here but I am not aware of them in any numbers.  A person coming from China or South East Asia will have a large community of support here.  So I am not so sure I would assume he did not experience pressure or problems unless you also assume there is no difference between the culture of Denmark and the culture of Canada.  It might be so but I am not going to make that assumption.