AP POLL: How to pay for health overhaul? Tax the rich

[garbon]

To be honest, what relevance does Jackie have to young Americans?

[Berkut]

I remember reading once that in Australia (or New Zealand?) it is actually ILLEGAL to not vote in elections if you are a registered voter.  WORST.  IDEA.  EVER.

I have to admit, I lost a bit of faith in democracy when I found out that the majority of Americans thought the USSR was in NATO in the 60s.

Never heard that. But I believe it. I was watching Amazing Race a few weeks ago and the contestants, young Americans, were shown a picture of Jackie O. and they had no idea who it was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swz3px7cRVc

I know who she is, but I may not recognize a picture of her. Why would I?

[Maximus]

I know who she is, but I may not recognize a picture of her. Why would I?

Yea, same here.

Not caring about celebrities is not a particularly heinous form of ignorance IMO.

[derspiess]

And apparently the Senate version *decreases* the deficit by somthing like 132 billion over 10 years.

Interesting.  Did that come from the CBO?

[MadImmortalMan]

I agree with this, particularly the short-term part. But the flip side of that is that that kind of money is not growth money. It's keep us afloat money. It's all that "extra" money that rich people have that creates jobs and growth.

I'm not so sure that's clear. What disposable income among the poor isn't playing a role in our consumer-domintaed economy?

It absolutely is playing a role. It's crucial. I was pointing out the difference between consumer spending and investment capital.

[KRonn]

And apparently the Senate version *decreases* the deficit by somthing like 132 billion over 10 years.

Interesting.  Did that come from the CBO?

Smoke and mirrors accounting. The CBO can only analyze what the Congress sends on these bills, regardless of realities, or the actual lack of ability of Congress to do what the bill says in the real world. Such as Congress claiming they'll cut billions in fraud from Medicare - never have done so, and don't likely have any real idea for doing so. But they put it in the bill anyway, as a way to claim they can make ends meet.

[KRonn]

I remember reading once that in Australia (or New Zealand?) it is actually ILLEGAL to not vote in elections if you are a registered voter.  WORST.  IDEA.  EVER.

I have to admit, I lost a bit of faith in democracy when I found out that the majority of Americans thought the USSR was in NATO in the 60s.

Lack of education. People also got confused when Jay Leno asked if jet planes or just prop planes were used in the Revolution or Civil War. At least they didn't think jets had been invented yet, so it must have been propeller planes.   

[KRonn]

Same old shell game with numbers by Congress. Most of the article below is by Repubs, but Dems will be speaking out and saying about the same. Just a reminder of the reasons why Democrats have been unable to agree among themselves at all, and they have the votes to ram anything through, regardless of GOP votes.

See the last paragraph - Medicare already has $40 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities!!      What? You have got to be kidding me.... if valid, and I've heard that stated a number of times before, how can I have any confidence in the government taking on a much larger slice of health care!? 

[size]
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/19/gop-leaders-denounce-medicare-doc-fix/

GOP Leaders Denounce Democrats' Medicare 'Doc Fix'

The "doctor fix" would be paid by more federal borrowing for Medicare, a program already steep in debt. The plan would also add to the federal deficit, which hit an all-time high of $1.42 trillion in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.

Republican leaders on Thursday denounced the House Democrats' version of the so-called "doc fix," a $210 billion plan to keep doctors who treat Medicare patients from experiencing severe cuts in their annual federal reimbursements.

The "doctor fix" would be paid by more federal borrowing for Medicare, a program already steep in debt. The plan would also add to the federal deficit, which hit an all-time high of $1.42 trillion in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.
The House is expected to vote on the measure Thursday.
"Bringing an unpaid 'doc fix' to the floor is the height of irresponsibility," House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said at a news conference ahead of the vote.
"We'll be offering the alternative when we get to the floor today," House Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va., added.
Medicare physicians are facing a 21 percent cut in reimbursements next year and another roughly 5 percent cut for each of the next several years, according to the 2009 Medicare Trustees report.

Supporters of the "doc fix" say that a long-term fix is needed to provide certainty to doctors, and their patients, many who fear the cuts and therefore refuse to treat Medicare patients.

But Senate Democratic leaders failed last month to garner enough support for their $247 billion version of the "doc fix." The Senate blocked the plan by a vote of 47-52, with 13 Democrats joining all Republicans in opposition.

Rep. Mike Pence, chairman of the House Republican Conference, issued a direct warning to President Obama about the "doc fix."
"Mr. President, we have news for you," the Indiana Republican said. "People are looking at the deficit and this is adding to a lack of confidence in this economy."
Rep. Paul Broun, R-Ga., issued a statement to doctors.

"The message to doctors is this is not going to fix your problem," he said. "You should know that doctors are going to have a tough time seeing you if this bill is passed into law."

The proposal would replace a formula from the 1997 Balanced Budget Act designed to hold down Medicare costs by setting yearly and cumulative spending targets. If actual spending exceeds the target for a given year, reimbursement rates for doctors are lowered the next year. Expenditures have exceeded projections for the past seven years and Congress has passed legislation to override the fix all seven years.

The measure originally was expected to be part of Obama's sweeping health care reform legislation. But separating it will allow Democrats to prevent the measure from pushing health reform legislation over the $900 billion ceiling set by Obama. The president asserts that the 10-year plan will be paid in large part through savings in Medicare.

Republicans on the House Ways and Means Committee sent a letter to the president of the American Medical Association, which supports the "doc fix," expressing support for tackling the looming cuts but voicing concerns over the Democrats' plan.

"I support the intent of the legislation to stop the physician payment cut, but not only does the Democrats' bill not permanently solve the problem as some have claimed, it massively increases the deficit," Rep. Dave Camp, the top Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee, said in a written statement.
"Republicans have a fully paid for policy that will ensure doctors receive fair compensation without adding to our already oversized national debt."

Rep. Wally Herger, the top Republican on the House Health Subcommittee, added, "The Democrats' proposed 'fix' is really a shell game designed to mask the true cost of their proposed government takeover of health care, and it would add, by one estimate, nearly $2 trillion to Medicare's long-term unfunded liabilities -- which are already nearly $40 trillion."

[alfred russel]

See the last paragraph - Medicare already has $40 trillion worth of unfunded liabilities!!      What? You have got to be kidding me.... if valid, and I've heard that stated a number of times before, how can I have any confidence in the government taking on a much larger slice of health care!? 

Because that is the way social security and medicare were set up. The liabilities for those programs are going to include all the money that you, and I and Tim are going to be entitled to under those programs. We are going to be paid out of the payroll taxes collected when we are actually receiving social security and medicare--hence they are currently unfunded.

[Iormlund]

I actually think cutting taxes (what little there actually are, anyways) on the poor rather than the rich is likely to have a more immediate economic benefit, since the poor are less likely to save and more likely to immediately blow any cash they have on consumer goods.  Obviously not all poor people behave that way, but I'm sure the majority do.

I agree with this, particularly the short-term part. But the flip side of that is that that kind of money is not growth money. It's keep us afloat money. It's all that "extra" money that rich people have that creates jobs and growth.

The problem is not a lack of people rich people. It's that they are not investing their money. Those struggling don't have that choice and that's why they are great when it comes to put the money into circulation.

[derspiess]

Such as Congress claiming they'll cut billions in fraud from Medicare - never have done so, and don't likely have any real idea for doing so. But they put it in the bill anyway, as a way to claim they can make ends meet.

Yeah, that one always cracks me up.  Apparently something magical will happen to catch all the fraud that is not yet being caught. 

[MadImmortalMan]

The problem is not a lack of people rich people. It's that they are not investing their money. Those struggling don't have that choice and that's why they are great when it comes to put the money into circulation.

Oh? How are they not investing it? Keeping it in the bank (which then lends it out to entrepreneurs and consumers of cars and homes), or buying government bonds and sitting on them (which provides funds for us to build bridges and roads) or are you suggesting that too many rich people are buying gold bars and putting them in deposit boxes?

[Berkut]

The problem is not a lack of people rich people. It's that they are not investing their money. Those struggling don't have that choice and that's why they are great when it comes to put the money into circulation.

Oh? How are they not investing it? Keeping it in the bank (which then lends it out to entrepreneurs and consumers of cars and homes), or buying government bonds and sitting on them (which provides funds for us to build bridges and roads) or are you suggesting that too many rich people are buying gold bars and putting them in deposit boxes?

Deposit boxes are a consumer good, and hence we collect sales tax on that, so this should be encouraged.

[MadImmortalMan]

Deposit boxes are a consumer good, and hence we collect sales tax on that, so this should be encouraged.

We should tax Ed Anger's money bin.

[Ed Anger]

Deposit boxes are a consumer good, and hence we collect sales tax on that, so this should be encouraged.

We should tax Ed Anger's money bin.

I'm investing a portion of my capital into businesses. They can tax somebody else.

Also, overtax me and no more 73" televisions will be bought by me. I can make a penny scream when I pinch them.