Space Colonization: Fact or Fantasy?

[Caliga]

I think it is the inevitable future.

IMO the far more likely future is human extinction prior to interstellar colonization.  It may be that we give way to machine life of our own creation, and that machine life in some way colonizes the galaxy, but obviously we wouldn't deserve much credit in that case.

[Queequeg]

I think it is the inevitable future.

IMO the far more likely future is human extinction prior to interstellar colonization.  It may be that we give way to machine life of our own creation, and that machine life in some way colonizes the galaxy, but obviously we wouldn't deserve much credit in that case.

Machine life?  How are we defining that?  I think we've all seen The Terminator too many times for us to be so reckless with our AIs, and I'm not *totally* convinced that an AI without an instinct for self preservation or a thirst for power would want to get rid of us.  I could see some kind of posthuman cyborg-like being in our future, but I think most of us like our bodies quite a bit. 

[Josquius]

Machine life?  How are we defining that?  I think we've all seen The Terminator too many times for us to be so reckless with our AIs, and I'm not *totally* convinced that an AI without an instinct for self preservation or a thirst for power would want to get rid of us.  I could see some kind of posthuman cyborg-like being in our future, but I think most of us like our bodies quite a bit. 

I think he was thinking more like the film AI- humans die out but the machines survive.
But yes, AIs are a good thing, its stupid robots we have to worry about.

[Caliga]

I wasn't meaning to imply that some Matrix-style war between humanity and AI was necessarily inevitable.

[Queequeg]

I tend to think that progress like that is unlikely.  We've come a long way from the hunter-gatherers, but we still have way more in common with Sumerian farmers than anything else, and  I doubt that space exploration and the end of meaningful material want will change that. 

In an odd sense, I could see the shock of AI development and meaningful space exploration resulting in some kind of cultural/behavioral reaction a la Dune, but to be honest I really just want to ride sandworms.   

[Queequeg]

To be totally honest, I find the Dune scenario weirdly plausible in some ways.  Space-travel would probably be so expensive that many communities would presumably find ways to set up a colony with the absolute minimum dependence on trans-galactic trade, with various minority groups founding their own colonies in various areas.  Weirdly enough,  I could see the Mormons doing something like that, and they did exactly that in Starship Troopers, where they were killed by Arachnids (yay!). 

[Ed Anger]

but to be honest I really just want to ride sandworms.

gay.

[Darth Wagtaros]

but to be honest I really just want to ride sandworms.

gay.

How else could you read this?

[Martim Silva]

2: I would disagree on this point. What colonies have worked out well for those who founded them? I also believe you are confusing immigration with colonization. Immigration is one of the core things in human history. 

Northern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia seem to be working for Italy.

Everything South of the Tagus for Portugal, plus the Azores and Madeira.

The area of Granada for Spain.

France has been very successful in colonizing Occitania, it even had most of the locals believing that their native tounge (the Llenguadoc) is a patois of French (which it is not).

Jämtland and Härjedalen for Sweden (central Scandinavia was settled in the XVIIth century)

Greenland for Danmark.

Russia is doing fine with Siberia.

The isle of Hokkaido for Japan.

Taiwan [colonized in the XVIIth century by the Chinese] and the lands of the Uighurs for China (and Tibet can be argued to be a sucessful colony, too).

India is doing fine with Goa.

Most of Thailand.

Turkey certainly proved to be a successful Turk colony (though it was never subject to their homeland).

Everything West of the original colonies for the US (most of the central and western US states were colonized, they did not just spontaneously sprout out of the ground and joined the US fully developed). Arizona and most areas taken from Mexico can also be said to have been colonized by the US. Hawaii also fits this bill.

That's what I remember, but I am sure there are many other examples.

As for space colonies: come on, does anyone doubt that if we find planets similar to Earth, that people would not want to live there eventually?

The only question is wheter it will all be under one govermnent or not. I suppose that will depend on the nature of Space Travel:

- If it is slow and communications hard, first colonial governments will basically be feudal and the planet will eventually turn independent.

- If Space/Time is mastered and we can move instantly between systems (or even between planets in different systems), then they would just be extensions of the mother planet.

[Faeelin]

Yes. They'd need to be economically viable at the very least. Something like an asteroid or offworld mining operation maybe. Or an orbital power generation station.

Again, why do you need people there?

[MadImmortalMan]

Yes. They'd need to be economically viable at the very least. Something like an asteroid or offworld mining operation maybe. Or an orbital power generation station.

Again, why do you need people there?

You might not. Does a settlement require human presence and not just robots to qualify as a colony?

[Admiral Yi]

To be totally honest, I find the Dune scenario weirdly plausible in some ways.  Space-travel would probably be so expensive that many communities would presumably find ways to set up a colony with the absolute minimum dependence on trans-galactic trade, with various minority groups founding their own colonies in various areas.  Weirdly enough,  I could see the Mormons doing something like that, and they did exactly that in Starship Troopers, where they were killed by Arachnids (yay!).

If space travel is so expensive that trade is not feasible, then neither is colonization.

As a minor digression, wasn't it odd in WALL*E that the evil corporation was responsible for everything bad but they *gave away* all their goods and services.

[Caliga]

As a minor digression, wasn't it odd in WALL*E that the evil corporation was responsible for everything bad but they *gave away* all their goods and services.

Nein.  Hollywood hates capitalism, except when they grow rich from it, which is all the time.

[Neil]

As for space colonies: come on, does anyone doubt that if we find planets similar to Earth, that people would not want to live there eventually?

The only question is wheter it will all be under one govermnent or not. I suppose that will depend on the nature of Space Travel:

- If it is slow and communications hard, first colonial governments will basically be feudal and the planet will eventually turn independent.

- If Space/Time is mastered and we can move instantly between systems (or even between planets in different systems), then they would just be extensions of the mother planet.

People might want to live there (if they're retarded), but they'll never be able to do so.

[Strix]

2: I would disagree on this point. What colonies have worked out well for those who founded them? I also believe you are confusing immigration with colonization. Immigration is one of the core things in human history. 

Northern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia seem to be working for Italy.

Everything South of the Tagus for Portugal, plus the Azores and Madeira.

The area of Granada for Spain.

France has been very successful in colonizing Occitania, it even had most of the locals believing that their native tounge (the Llenguadoc) is a patois of French (which it is not).

Jämtland and Härjedalen for Sweden (central Scandinavia was settled in the XVIIth century)

Greenland for Danmark.

Russia is doing fine with Siberia.

The isle of Hokkaido for Japan.

Taiwan [colonized in the XVIIth century by the Chinese] and the lands of the Uighurs for China (and Tibet can be argued to be a sucessful colony, too).

India is doing fine with Goa.

Most of Thailand.

Turkey certainly proved to be a successful Turk colony (though it was never subject to their homeland).

Everything West of the original colonies for the US (most of the central and western US states were colonized, they did not just spontaneously sprout out of the ground and joined the US fully developed). Arizona and most areas taken from Mexico can also be said to have been colonized by the US. Hawaii also fits this bill.

That's what I remember, but I am sure there are many other examples.

As for space colonies: come on, does anyone doubt that if we find planets similar to Earth, that people would not want to live there eventually?

The only question is wheter it will all be under one govermnent or not. I suppose that will depend on the nature of Space Travel:

- If it is slow and communications hard, first colonial governments will basically be feudal and the planet will eventually turn independent.

- If Space/Time is mastered and we can move instantly between systems (or even between planets in different systems), then they would just be extensions of the mother planet.

That's my fault for not narrowing down the type of colony. The type you are describing for the most part are nothing more than frontier settlements. I was thinking more along the lines of the original thirteen colonies and England than the US and Utah. Frontier settlements work (for the most part) because they are absorbed back into the continuous whole of the parent country.

Which brings up my main reason behind thinking why space colonies will not be successful for Earth. And which you stated so well. Communications, unless we leap forward in amazing new technology, will be slow and difficult. This means that colonists will be under some sort of independent guidance and that they will be beyond the help of direct assistance from the Earth. And, just as in the case of the US, if the colony is successful it will quickly come to resent any interference or directives from the Earth the more self-sufficient it becomes. And more often than not this leads to warfare.