Holocaust denial

[garbon]

Never had Eritrean, but I've had Ethiopian which I agree is delicious.

I don't think its particularly delicious / I like using utensils.

[garbon]

The crux of it is that Americans are simply more open to the narrative of a group moving into some new land and setting themselves up in it, for the simple reason that this is part of the *American* mythological narrative, too - often using the exact same cultural terminology. ... Americans naturally enough tend to view the Israeli situation through the lens of their own history.

Really? Is that what I do?

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't think you're right when you say urban areas in mandatory Palestine were more heterogeneous.  I believe Tel Aviv was overwhelmingly Jewish and Haifa was (and still is) overwhelmingly Arab.  My hunch (derived from Exodus and other academic sources) is that the heterogeneity was in the countryside, where you had kibbutzes cheek by jowl with Arab farms.

Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population.  Literature, film and romance may play up the roles of the Kibbutzes, but comparatively speaking they were not where most of the Jews lived.  The general picture of an urbanized Jewish population living cheek-to-jowl with a large Arab urban minority combined with overwhelming Arab majorities in the countryside (punctuated here and there by kibbutznik "settlement blocs" )is more accurate.

[MadImmortalMan]

The crux of it is that Americans are simply more open to the narrative of a group moving into some new land and setting themselves up in it, for the simple reason that this is part of the *American* mythological narrative, too - often using the exact same cultural terminology. ... Americans naturally enough tend to view the Israeli situation through the lens of their own history.

Really? Is that what I do?

Mal has a point there, I think. Israel's advocates in the US learned how to frame their position in terms amenable to an American mindset early on. No you, specifically, but in general terms.

[alfred russel]

I once ate ethiopian and was told after the meal part of it was raw pork. Kind of gross.

I very much doubt it.  They have a raw beef dish called kitfo; I'll bet that's what you had.

I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.

[The Brain]

I don't think you're right when you say urban areas in mandatory Palestine were more heterogeneous.  I believe Tel Aviv was overwhelmingly Jewish and Haifa was (and still is) overwhelmingly Arab.  My hunch (derived from Exodus and other academic sources) is that the heterogeneity was in the countryside, where you had kibbutzes cheek by jowl with Arab farms.

Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population. 

Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation. Classy.

[The Brain]

I once ate ethiopian and was told after the meal part of it was raw pork. Kind of gross.

I very much doubt it.  They have a raw beef dish called kitfo; I'll bet that's what you had.

I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.

Poef? Berk?

[The Minsky Moment]

Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation.

The someone would be the British Mandate and the logistics operation the cessation of mandatory rule.

[The Brain]

Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation.

The someone would be the British Mandate and the logistics operation the cessation of mandatory rule.

Have you ever actually been on a mandate? No? Then STFU.

[garbon]

Have you ever actually been on a mandate? No? Then STFU.

He's a liberal New Yorker. Isn't that requisite?

[Admiral Yi]

Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population.  Literature, film and romance may play up the roles of the Kibbutzes, but comparatively speaking they were not where most of the Jews lived.  The general picture of an urbanized Jewish population living cheek-to-jowl with a large Arab urban minority combined with overwhelming Arab majorities in the countryside (punctuated here and there by kibbutznik "settlement blocs" )is more accurate.

I stand corrected about Haifa.  The rest of your post doesn't necessarily refute my point however.  In addition to Jewish majority Tel Aviv and barely Jewish majority Haifa the UN awarded rural areas where we know, by simple mathematical deduction, that Jews were either a bare majority or even possibly in the minority.

[Queequeg]

I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.

That person may have been wrong.  The Ethiopian Orthodox Church expressly forbids the consumption of Pork, and obviously the Ethiopian Muslims don't eat it either.  Raw beef seems more likely (and much less likely to kill you).

[The Minsky Moment]

In addition to Jewish majority Tel Aviv and barely Jewish majority Haifa the UN awarded rural areas where we know, by simple mathematical deduction, that Jews were either a bare majority or even possibly in the minority.

In addition to raw population counts the UN also considered: (1) the expected immediate influx of a couple hundred thousand Jewish refugees once partitition took place; (2) the desirability to minimizing the degree to which the partitioned areas consisted of small intermittant enclaves as opposed to continuous territorial blocs; (3) the desirability of allocated to both sides some mix of urban and rural areas to provide some semblance of viaibility.

If you were to draw a density dot graph of Jewish population in palestine c. 1947 and blend the dots together you would roughly get the partioned area for the Jewish state (sans the Negev).  Again, what specifically would you have done differently?  You have given a general methology but one that if applied would have resulted in two states of scattered dots and blotches.  Focusing on the options realistically available, what would you have done?

[Admiral Yi]

In addition to raw population counts the UN also considered: (1) the expected immediate influx of a couple hundred thousand Jewish refugees once partitition took place; (2) the desirability to minimizing the degree to which the partitioned areas consisted of small intermittant enclaves as opposed to continuous territorial blocs; (3) the desirability of allocated to both sides some mix of urban and rural areas to provide some semblance of viaibility.

If you were to draw a density dot graph of Jewish population in palestine c. 1947 and blend the dots together you would roughly get the partioned area for the Jewish state (sans the Negev).  Again, what specifically would you have done differently?  You have given a general methology but one that if applied would have resulted in two states of scattered dots and blotches.  Focusing on the options realistically available, what would you have done?

The three additional factors you mention are reasonable factors; they also all happened to favor the Jewish state.

Another reasonable approach would have been to assign areas of Jewish demographic dominance (i.e. Tel Aviv) to the Jews, areas of Arab demographic dominance (i.e. the West Bank and Gaza) to the Arabs, and divide the mixed areas proportionally on the ethnic ratios of the mixed area.  Then in pursuit of the goals that you mentioned, trade blocks of territory.  For example, a possibility would have been to trade the area around the Sea of Gallilea (Jewish majority??, isolated from Tel Aviv) for the Tel Aviv-West Jerusalem corridor.

[Sheilbh]

And where you can't give a second example of the "plucky nation" hypothesis,  I can think of an example for the "domestic politics" hypothesis.  The US was an early and vocal supporter of Irish independence.  This was driven almost entirely on domestic politics, and not at all on any greater strategic national interest.

And Cuba in the past 20 years at least.