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Holocaust denial

Started by Josquius, September 18, 2009, 08:44:11 PM

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garbon

Quote from: Caliga on September 21, 2009, 11:00:29 AM
Never had Eritrean, but I've had Ethiopian which I agree is delicious.

I don't think its particularly delicious / I like using utensils.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
The crux of it is that Americans are simply more open to the narrative of a group moving into some new land and setting themselves up in it, for the simple reason that this is part of the *American* mythological narrative, too - often using the exact same cultural terminology. ... Americans naturally enough tend to view the Israeli situation through the lens of their own history.

Really? Is that what I do?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2009, 11:36:57 AM
I don't think you're right when you say urban areas in mandatory Palestine were more heterogeneous.  I believe Tel Aviv was overwhelmingly Jewish and Haifa was (and still is) overwhelmingly Arab.  My hunch (derived from Exodus and other academic sources) is that the heterogeneity was in the countryside, where you had kibbutzes cheek by jowl with Arab farms.

Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population.  Literature, film and romance may play up the roles of the Kibbutzes, but comparatively speaking they were not where most of the Jews lived.  The general picture of an urbanized Jewish population living cheek-to-jowl with a large Arab urban minority combined with overwhelming Arab majorities in the countryside (punctuated here and there by kibbutznik "settlement blocs" )is more accurate.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

MadImmortalMan

Quote from: garbon on September 21, 2009, 11:52:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 21, 2009, 11:20:34 AM
The crux of it is that Americans are simply more open to the narrative of a group moving into some new land and setting themselves up in it, for the simple reason that this is part of the *American* mythological narrative, too - often using the exact same cultural terminology. ... Americans naturally enough tend to view the Israeli situation through the lens of their own history.

Really? Is that what I do?

Mal has a point there, I think. Israel's advocates in the US learned how to frame their position in terms amenable to an American mindset early on. No you, specifically, but in general terms.
"Stability is destabilizing." --Hyman Minsky

"Complacency can be a self-denying prophecy."
"We have nothing to fear but lack of fear itself." --Larry Summers

alfred russel

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
I once ate ethiopian and was told after the meal part of it was raw pork. Kind of gross.
I very much doubt it.  They have a raw beef dish called kitfo; I'll bet that's what you had.

I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

There's a fine line between salvation and drinking poison in the jungle.

I'm embarrassed. I've been making the mistake of associating with you. It won't happen again. :)
-garbon, February 23, 2014

The Brain

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2009, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2009, 11:36:57 AM
I don't think you're right when you say urban areas in mandatory Palestine were more heterogeneous.  I believe Tel Aviv was overwhelmingly Jewish and Haifa was (and still is) overwhelmingly Arab.  My hunch (derived from Exodus and other academic sources) is that the heterogeneity was in the countryside, where you had kibbutzes cheek by jowl with Arab farms.

Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population. 

Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation. Classy.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

The Brain

Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2009, 12:22:40 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2009, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2009, 11:38:06 AM
I once ate ethiopian and was told after the meal part of it was raw pork. Kind of gross.
I very much doubt it.  They have a raw beef dish called kitfo; I'll bet that's what you had.

I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.

Poef? Berk?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: The Brain on September 21, 2009, 12:34:16 PM
Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation.

The someone would be the British Mandate and the logistics operation the cessation of mandatory rule.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

The Brain

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2009, 12:36:42 PM
Quote from: The Brain on September 21, 2009, 12:34:16 PM
Someone is compiling population figures, classifying people, drawing up lists... probably as preparation for some kind of logistics operation.

The someone would be the British Mandate and the logistics operation the cessation of mandatory rule.

Have you ever actually been on a mandate? No? Then STFU.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

garbon

Quote from: The Brain on September 21, 2009, 12:39:35 PM
Have you ever actually been on a mandate? No? Then STFU.

He's a liberal New Yorker. Isn't that requisite?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2009, 12:06:00 PM
Your hunch would be wrong.  In 1946, Haifa city had a Jewish population of 74,320 (compared to 41,000 arab moslem and 29,910 chirstian).  Jews made up almost exactly one-half of Palestine's total urban population but only 1/6 of the rural population.  Literature, film and romance may play up the roles of the Kibbutzes, but comparatively speaking they were not where most of the Jews lived.  The general picture of an urbanized Jewish population living cheek-to-jowl with a large Arab urban minority combined with overwhelming Arab majorities in the countryside (punctuated here and there by kibbutznik "settlement blocs" )is more accurate.
I stand corrected about Haifa.  The rest of your post doesn't necessarily refute my point however.  In addition to Jewish majority Tel Aviv and barely Jewish majority Haifa the UN awarded rural areas where we know, by simple mathematical deduction, that Jews were either a bare majority or even possibly in the minority.

Queequeg

Quote from: alfred russel on September 21, 2009, 12:22:40 PM


I hope so. But I was definately told raw pork--beef wouldn't have bothered me so much.
That person may have been wrong.  The Ethiopian Orthodox Church expressly forbids the consumption of Pork, and obviously the Ethiopian Muslims don't eat it either.  Raw beef seems more likely (and much less likely to kill you).
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 21, 2009, 12:46:10 PM
In addition to Jewish majority Tel Aviv and barely Jewish majority Haifa the UN awarded rural areas where we know, by simple mathematical deduction, that Jews were either a bare majority or even possibly in the minority.

In addition to raw population counts the UN also considered: (1) the expected immediate influx of a couple hundred thousand Jewish refugees once partitition took place; (2) the desirability to minimizing the degree to which the partitioned areas consisted of small intermittant enclaves as opposed to continuous territorial blocs; (3) the desirability of allocated to both sides some mix of urban and rural areas to provide some semblance of viaibility.

If you were to draw a density dot graph of Jewish population in palestine c. 1947 and blend the dots together you would roughly get the partioned area for the Jewish state (sans the Negev).  Again, what specifically would you have done differently?  You have given a general methology but one that if applied would have resulted in two states of scattered dots and blotches.  Focusing on the options realistically available, what would you have done?
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Admiral Yi

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 21, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
In addition to raw population counts the UN also considered: (1) the expected immediate influx of a couple hundred thousand Jewish refugees once partitition took place; (2) the desirability to minimizing the degree to which the partitioned areas consisted of small intermittant enclaves as opposed to continuous territorial blocs; (3) the desirability of allocated to both sides some mix of urban and rural areas to provide some semblance of viaibility.

If you were to draw a density dot graph of Jewish population in palestine c. 1947 and blend the dots together you would roughly get the partioned area for the Jewish state (sans the Negev).  Again, what specifically would you have done differently?  You have given a general methology but one that if applied would have resulted in two states of scattered dots and blotches.  Focusing on the options realistically available, what would you have done?
The three additional factors you mention are reasonable factors; they also all happened to favor the Jewish state.

Another reasonable approach would have been to assign areas of Jewish demographic dominance (i.e. Tel Aviv) to the Jews, areas of Arab demographic dominance (i.e. the West Bank and Gaza) to the Arabs, and divide the mixed areas proportionally on the ethnic ratios of the mixed area.  Then in pursuit of the goals that you mentioned, trade blocks of territory.  For example, a possibility would have been to trade the area around the Sea of Gallilea (Jewish majority??, isolated from Tel Aviv) for the Tel Aviv-West Jerusalem corridor.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Barrister on September 20, 2009, 05:29:47 PM
And where you can't give a second example of the "plucky nation" hypothesis,  I can think of an example for the "domestic politics" hypothesis.  The US was an early and vocal supporter of Irish independence.  This was driven almost entirely on domestic politics, and not at all on any greater strategic national interest.
And Cuba in the past 20 years at least.
Let's bomb Russia!