Holocaust denial

[Malthus]

I don't see Israel as part of my "us". Nor do I the palestinians for that matter. I can only speak for myself, and not other Europeans, but if I seem not to care it is because I don't, at least not much. Why do you care so much that they are rich, like you are?

It isn't the "rich", it's the shared values and institutions.

Europeans and Americans simply differ in this respect: Americans tend to view Jews as "of them", whereas historically at least many Europeans did not - even when said Jews looked exactly like them, spoke the same languages, etc. 

[Pat]

Perhaps I am unfair to the secular humanists of Israel in my assessment, who I'm sure I could feel all kinds of kinship with, but there is much in Israeli culture and values which is, at least to me, decidedly middle-eastern. I don't think we have to look very far away to find examples of this.

edit: And as a preventive measure I will reiterate that I can only speak for myself, and to some extent Sweden, but I will not be able to speak for other Europeans, or, indeed, other Eurasians or other inhabitants of the GMT +1 time zone.

[ulmont]

edit: though I was under the impression that there were only 2-3 million muslims in America, and many of them lived concentrated in places such as Detroit, but if you say I'm wrong I'll take your word for it

The US Census Bureau (which is barred from asking religious questions during the decennial census) did a 2007 study that found Jewish people as 1.7% of the population (5.2 million), with Muslims as 0.6% of the population (1.8 million):  http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s0074.pdf

The Muslim numbers are somewhat disputed, with a 2001 study claiming that there were 6 million Muslims in the US.  See http://www.hartfordinstitute.org/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html

[Malthus]

Perhaps I am unfair to the secular humanists of Israel in my assessment, who I'm sure I could feel all kinds of kinship with, but there is much in Israeli culture and values which is, at least to me, decidedly middle-eastern. I don't think we have to look very far away to find examples of this.

edit: And as a preventive measure I will reiterate that I can only speak for myself, and to some extent Sweden, but I will not be able to speak for other Europeans, or, indeed, other Eurasians or other inhabitants of the GMT +1 time zone.

It depends on the Israeli. About half of Israelis are in point of fact from the ME. The other half are from Europe, and are basically indistinguishable from Europeans; with the exception of a minority of the religious (the majority of Ashkenazim or Israelis of European descent are in point of fact atheists or agnostic). 

In terms of institutions, Israel is pretty well all European. There is very little "middle eastern" about it.

[Barrister]

So you don't think this whole J-Street attempt could change things?  They argue that AIPAC etc have a pretty Likudnik view of policy that creates a damagingly limited discourse, because a lobby is seen as the representative of that whole issue, so the Israeli perspective is limited.

Such an attempt makes a good experiment for the thesis. If J-street is able to "change things" it would go to show that lobbying is the significant factor. If it isn't, it would be evidence in the other direction.

When I argue that American supprot for Israel is due to the large jewish-american population, that goes well beyond the organized lobbying efforts of groups like AIPAC.

[Malthus]

When I argue that American supprot for Israel is due to the large jewish-american population, that goes well beyond the organized lobbying efforts of groups like AIPAC.

The argument for J-street is that the views of the Jewish-American population are not being represented by AIPAC. If they are correct in this, and if you are right, then their success would be some evidence that you are correct, and their failure will be some evidence that either you and/or they are wrong. 

[Neil]

Humanism is monstrous.

[Malthus]

Humanism is monstrous.

Better Vegetarianism than Humanism.

[Barrister]

When I argue that American supprot for Israel is due to the large jewish-american population, that goes well beyond the organized lobbying efforts of groups like AIPAC.

The argument for J-street is that the views of the Jewish-American population are not being represented by AIPAC. If they are correct in this, and if you are right, then their success would be some evidence that you are correct, and their failure will be some evidence that either you and/or they are wrong.

I see.

But still that has more to do with the direction and nature of US support for Israel, not whether the US does or does not contribute significant support to Israel.

[Razgovory]

I don't see Israel as part of my "us". Nor do I the palestinians for that matter. I can only speak for myself, and not other Europeans, but if I seem not to care it is because I don't, at least not much. Why do you care so much that they are rich, like you are?

It isn't the "rich", it's the shared values and institutions.

Europeans and Americans simply differ in this respect: Americans tend to view Jews as "of them", whereas historically at least many Europeans did not - even when said Jews looked exactly like them, spoke the same languages, etc.

I believe this to be true.  Hell, I wouldn't doubt that the Israelis are more like Americans then Europeans are like Americans.