Holocaust denial

[Admiral Yi]

So you don't think this whole J-Street attempt could change things?  They argue that AIPAC etc have a pretty Likudnik view of policy that creates a damagingly limited discourse, because a lobby is seen as the representative of that whole issue, so the Israeli perspective is limited.

I've read a couple articles about J Street and got the impression that they're trying to get the tail of Jewish support for liberal domestic policies to wag the dog of Israel policy.

[Sheilbh]

I've read a couple articles about J Street and got the impression that they're trying to get the tail of Jewish support for liberal domestic policies to wag the dog of Israel policy.

They argue that basically AIPAC are right-wing and that Israel policy is overly dominated by them, by Evangelicals and so on and that their position (which J-Street argue is effectively Likud politics) doesn't jibe with mainstream Jewish opinion in the US.  So you could be right.

[Admiral Yi]

They argue that basically AIPAC are right-wing and that Israel policy is overly dominated by them, by Evangelicals and so on and that their position (which J-Street argue is effectively Likud politics) doesn't jibe with mainstream Jewish opinion in the US.  So you could be right.

That would be arguing Israel policy on its own merits.  I'm talking causal chains like

Jews like health care reform, Obama supports health care reform, Obama wants settlements to stop, we should want settlements to stop.

[Fate]

oh I see.  Only problem with that is that it would leave the Jewish area entirely bereft of access to fresh water.

are the arabs supposed to trust people like seigebreaker with the water supply!?!

[The Minsky Moment]

So you don't think this whole J-Street attempt could change things?  They argue that AIPAC etc have a pretty Likudnik view of policy that creates a damagingly limited discourse, because a lobby is seen as the representative of that whole issue, so the Israeli perspective is limited.

AIPAC-style lobbies have the most influence on members of Congress; on what issue for which Congress has any relevance is J-Street going to differ from AIPAC?  I assume both favor strong trade relations, access to military hardware, and continuing aid.

Ultimately the WH decides the big policy questions on ME diplomacy and while AIPAC may be able to get a few minutes of Rahm's ear, realistically their role in determining WH policy is not going to  be that great.  OTOH domestic considerations of how public opinion will view the policy and its likely consequences could be significant.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

oh I see.  Only problem with that is that it would leave the Jewish area entirely bereft of access to fresh water.

are the arabs supposed to trust people like seigebreaker with the water supply!?!

are the israelis suppesed to trust people like Amin al-Husayni  with their lives?

[Fate]

oh I see.  Only problem with that is that it would leave the Jewish area entirely bereft of access to fresh water.

are the arabs supposed to trust people like seigebreaker with the water supply!?!

are the israelis suppesed to trust people like Amin al-Husayni  with their lives?

yes

[Pat]

The issue in the case of Israel is why Americans who are not Jews apparently support Israel.

Many jews in america, not so many muslims. Why make enemies of people near you to support people far away?

In European countries with large muslim populations, the same thinking produces the opposite result.

[Eddie Teach]

There's around equal numbers of Jews and Muslims in this country.

[Pat]

Perhaps in absolute numbers, how about many influential jews, few influential muslims? I'm sure you understand what I mean.


edit: though I was under the impression that there were only 2-3 million muslims in America, and many of them lived concentrated in places such as Detroit, but if you say I'm wrong I'll take your word for it

[Eddie Teach]

Well, let's see, Muslim President with Jewish Chief of Staff.   

But really, that explains nothing. Support for Israel goes way beyond whatever influence teh have on us.

[Pat]

I'm not saying it's influence - more us vs. them-thinking. Jews are, as prominent members of american society, more part of the "us" than muslims are. 

[Eddie Teach]

Well, sure. But Israel is also part of "us" (the West) and Europe doesn't seem to care for some reason.

[Pat]

I don't see Israel as part of my "us". Nor do I the palestinians for that matter. I can only speak for myself, and not other Europeans, but if I seem not to care it is because I don't, at least not much. Why do you care so much that they are rich, like you are?

[Malthus]

So you don't think this whole J-Street attempt could change things?  They argue that AIPAC etc have a pretty Likudnik view of policy that creates a damagingly limited discourse, because a lobby is seen as the representative of that whole issue, so the Israeli perspective is limited.

Such an attempt makes a good experiment for the thesis. If J-street is able to "change things" it would go to show that lobbying is the significant factor. If it isn't, it would be evidence in the other direction.