Moral reasoning more likely universal than cultural

[Malthus]

... at least, based on childhood development.

An interesting article on recent cross-cultural research:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feature/id/46747/title/Morality_Play

[CountDeMoney]

While it spends quite an amount of time on the little yellow sneaky ass sinister slope fucks, it doesn't explain the Islamotards at all.

[Viking]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

[Malthus]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

My guess is that it will displease the hard cultural relativists more than the Bible-thumpers. 

[Valmy]

My guess is that it will displease the hard cultural relativists more than the Bible-thumpers. 

Displeasing both is like Christmas and my birthday combined though.

[Malthus]

My guess is that it will displease the hard cultural relativists more than the Bible-thumpers. 

Displeasing both is like Christmas and my birthday combined though.

Me too.

Though here at least, the Bible-thumpers are a non-entity, whereas hard relativists used to roam our universities in vast herds as far as the eye could see, like the buffalo before the advent of the White Man.

[Razgovory]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

Actually you are way off.  Dawkin's memes are nowhere to be found here. Nobody is infecting these children with cultural morals.  Instead it's closer to Natural Law which is major component of Christian teachings.

[Viking]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

Actually you are way off.  Dawkin's memes are nowhere to be found here. Nobody is infecting these children with cultural morals.  Instead it's closer to Natural Law which is major component of Christian teachings.

1) How can you claim that morality is god given when everybody regardless of religion has the same basic morality?
2) The memes/genes which govern our behaviour can be traced back to the common Homo Homo Sapiens ancestor.

both of these points will make Dawkins wet his panties. I know you don't like him, but the faster you admit he is right the faster he can get over with being smug and the rest of us can go on with our lives.

[Malthus]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

Actually you are way off.  Dawkin's memes are nowhere to be found here. Nobody is infecting these children with cultural morals.  Instead it's closer to Natural Law which is major component of Christian teachings.

1) How can you claim that morality is god given when everybody regardless of religion has the same basic morality?
2) The memes/genes which govern our behaviour can be traced back to the common Homo Homo Sapiens ancestor.

both of these points will make Dawkins wet his panties. I know you don't like him, but the faster you admit he is right the faster he can get over with being smug and the rest of us can go on with our lives.

Heh I don't for a moment believe that the Biblical creator-god exists, but this research sure doesn't prove he didn't create morality.

Judeo-Christians never, as far as I know, claimed that morality derived from the Bible. Morality derived from God it is true, but he "gave" it to all humans in the world, according to the mythology - Noah was a "moral" man (famously *the* moral man), and he was the ancestor of all humanity - Blacks, Chinese, Ameridians, everyone. He didn't get his morality from the Bible because he didn't have a Bible, since it wasn't written yet. He wasn't even a Jew, since Jews didn't exist until later.

[Razgovory]

So much from getting morality from the bible. Dawkins (tm) approves of this thread.

Actually you are way off.  Dawkin's memes are nowhere to be found here. Nobody is infecting these children with cultural morals.  Instead it's closer to Natural Law which is major component of Christian teachings.

1) How can you claim that morality is god given when everybody regardless of religion has the same basic morality?
2) The memes/genes which govern our behaviour can be traced back to the common Homo Homo Sapiens ancestor.

both of these points will make Dawkins wet his panties. I know you don't like him, but the faster you admit he is right the faster he can get over with being smug and the rest of us can go on with our lives.

Memes and genes aren't the same.  You don't inherit memes.

As to the first point you should look up Natural Law then come back.

[Viking]

Heh I don't for a moment believe that the Biblical creator-god exists, but this research sure doesn't prove he didn't create morality.

Judeo-Christians never, as far as I know, claimed that morality derived from the Bible. Morality derived from God it is true, but he "gave" it to all humans in the world, according to the mythology - Noah was a "moral" man (famously *the* moral man), and he was the ancestor of all humanity - Blacks, Chinese, Ameridians, everyone. He didn't get his morality from the Bible because he didn't have a Bible, since it wasn't written yet. He wasn't even a Jew, since Jews didn't exist until later.

So when the pope says

"Just structures are," he said, "an indispensable condition for a just society, but they neither rise nor function without a moral consensus in society on fundamental values."

"Where God is absent — God with the human face of Jesus Christ — these values fail to show themselves with their full force: nor does a consensus arise concerning them," he said.

"I do not mean that nonbelievers cannot live a lofty and exemplary morality; I am only saying that a society in which God is absent will not find the necessary consensus on moral values or the strength to live according to the model of these values."

What the study makes clear is that whether your society follows a true religion, a fraudulent religion, a delusional religion, a satanic deceptive religion or no religion the moral foundation is the same. Religion is irrelevant. It is quite clear from this research that where God with the human face of Jesus Christ (this is true for about 4 billion humans) morality not only shows itself with the same full force the consensus concerning them arises as well.

[Viking]

Memes and genes aren't the same.  You don't inherit memes.

As to the first point you should look up Natural Law then come back.

Both memes and genes can affect our behaviour and both can be transmitted from generation to generation.

[Malthus]

Heh I don't for a moment believe that the Biblical creator-god exists, but this research sure doesn't prove he didn't create morality.

Judeo-Christians never, as far as I know, claimed that morality derived from the Bible. Morality derived from God it is true, but he "gave" it to all humans in the world, according to the mythology - Noah was a "moral" man (famously *the* moral man), and he was the ancestor of all humanity - Blacks, Chinese, Ameridians, everyone. He didn't get his morality from the Bible because he didn't have a Bible, since it wasn't written yet. He wasn't even a Jew, since Jews didn't exist until later.

So when the pope says

"Just structures are," he said, "an indispensable condition for a just society, but they neither rise nor function without a moral consensus in society on fundamental values."

"Where God is absent — God with the human face of Jesus Christ — these values fail to show themselves with their full force: nor does a consensus arise concerning them," he said.

"I do not mean that nonbelievers cannot live a lofty and exemplary morality; I am only saying that a society in which God is absent will not find the necessary consensus on moral values or the strength to live according to the model of these values."

What the study makes clear is that whether your society follows a true religion, a fraudulent religion, a delusional religion, a satanic deceptive religion or no religion the moral foundation is the same. Religion is irrelevant. It is quite clear from this research that where God with the human face of Jesus Christ (this is true for about 4 billion humans) morality not only shows itself with the same full force the consensus concerning them arises as well.

Your quote doesn't prove your point. Der Pope isn't saying you need the Bible to be moral - he expressly states the opposite.

What he claims is that you need (his) religion in order to create social consensus on moral issues.

It's a surprisingly utilitarian argument for his religion. That would be true (or false) whether God invented morality, or even if Dawkins was 100% correct and religion was pure bunkum.

[Viking]

Your quote doesn't prove your point. Der Pope isn't saying you need the Bible to be moral - he expressly states the opposite.

What he claims is that you need (his) religion in order to create social consensus on moral issues.

It's a surprisingly utilitarian argument for his religion. That would be true (or false) whether God invented morality, or even if Dawkins was 100% correct and religion was pure bunkum.

The Pope quote was to show a Judeo-Christian who is claiming that morality is derived from religion. I'm not going to bother to find a quote from the Pope claiming that anything other than the Bible is the sole source for Christian Religion, I'm going to assume that it is so bloody fucking obvious. If you disagree... please say so.

Now the pope does claim that to have a fully moral society you need his religion. You said that to your knowledge no judeo-christian linked morality to religion.

The study you linked to makes the case that the strength and consensus of morality is NOT linked to culture or religion. Satanists have the same basic morality.

[Malthus]

Your quote doesn't prove your point. Der Pope isn't saying you need the Bible to be moral - he expressly states the opposite.

What he claims is that you need (his) religion in order to create social consensus on moral issues.

It's a surprisingly utilitarian argument for his religion. That would be true (or false) whether God invented morality, or even if Dawkins was 100% correct and religion was pure bunkum.

The Pope quote was to show a Judeo-Christian who is claiming that morality is derived from religion. I'm not going to bother to find a quote from the Pope claiming that anything other than the Bible is the sole source for Christian Religion, I'm going to assume that it is so bloody fucking obvious. If you disagree... please say so.

Now the pope does claim that to have a fully moral society you need his religion. You said that to your knowledge no judeo-christian linked morality to religion.

The study you linked to makes the case that the strength and consensus of morality is NOT linked to culture or religion. Satanists have the same basic morality.

Your point was:

) How can you claim that morality is god given when everybody regardless of religion has the same basic morality?

What I'm saying is that a judeo-christian religious person - including the Pope - would not even break a sweat over this, since it is part of the mythology that Noah, ancestor of all humans, was moral and thus all humans have the same basic ability to be moral.

Your quote from the Pope doesn't refute this position at all. Presumably the Pope would not be fazed in the slightest by this research.