British citizen creates national uproar in Quebec

[Berkut]

Indeed.  But then again I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it, if only to piss in the face of our canadian posters' conceits, their nation is based on the denial of ours. 

G.

Grallon, what does this mean?

As a non-Canadian, I literally do not understand this idea - at all. If the Qebecois do not consider themselves part of Canada, why don't they simply leave - doesn't the Canadian constitution allow for that?

I am having some trouble understanding this idea that the Quebecois are some kind of oppressed minority in Canada of all places.

[HVC]

Indeed.  But then again I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it, if only to piss in the face of our canadian posters' conceits, their nation is based on the denial of ours. 

G.

Grallon, what does this mean?

As a non-Canadian, I literally do not understand this idea - at all. If the Qebecois do not consider themselves part of Canada, why don't they simply leave - doesn't the Canadian constitution allow for that?

They tried. the majority of quebecers do feel themselves canadian.

[ulmont]

As a non-Canadian, I literally do not understand this idea - at all. If the Qebecois do not consider themselves part of Canada, why don't they simply leave - doesn't the Canadian constitution allow for that?

The Canadian constitution, being the establishment of a new Dominion of the Empire, does not allow for the constituent points being granted self-rule to leave their Dominion-ness, no.

[Grey Fox]

It doesn't no.

What Ulmont said.

[Valmy]

As a non-Canadian, I literally do not understand this idea - at all. If the Qebecois do not consider themselves part of Canada, why don't they simply leave - doesn't the Canadian constitution allow for that?

Maybe because the Quebec voters have continually voted leaving down?  Quebec is, for better or worse for richer or poorer, married to Canada.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't know of any business in France that forbid the use of French or advertise only in english.

No that would be silly and counterproductive.  But trying getting a job these days in a French investment bank without speaking english.

Never been to Israel, so I don't really know about the businesses there, and in fact I don't know much about modern Israel at all, but I suspect a business there having signs only in Arabic and having mandatory use of Arabic at the work place would have some problems, legal or otherwise.

Wrong - Arabic is an official language of the State of Israel.

[The Brain]

Wrong - Arabic is an official language of the State of Israel.

Have you been drinking again? It's Jews who live in Israel. Jews.

[Grey Fox]

I am having some trouble understanding this idea that the Quebecois are some kind of oppressed minority in Canada of all places.

I'm going to tell you a story.

Gather round people, Grey Fox is going to tell you a little story. It's going to be full of grammatical errors & abrutly ended Senteces. The Grammar Nazis will go insane. It's going to be an hoot!

For the purposes of this story, Berkut is a unilangual French Speaking Beauceron who owns a little Cesna plane.

It's 1964, Berkut is flying into a Regional Airport in Mauricie. I'm the Air Traffic Controler directing him. I speak English & French, Berkut French only. In what language are the information being transmitted between us? In English of course. That make sense right? We both speak French but we can't use it. At some point some realize that was stupid & brought it up to Parliament. The Anglos went insane! Don't allow French, it'll cause accidents! Pilots will die! Passangers too! Some listen, some didn't, Law was changed that in Regional Airports French could be used.

Fastforward 10 years into the future. Berkut has learned English & upgraded to being a Commercial Pilot for Air Canada. I'm the ATC in the Montreal airport Tower. He speaks French, I speak French. I'm directing him, in English of course. French would kill him, his crew & his passengers, obviously. At some point someone took a Stand & said it's enough. Cause an Uproar the anglos went batshit insane this time. Took it up everywhere & anywhere. They took it up so much that it's sometime credited to being the final straw that lock the first Parti Quebecois victory in 1976.

[The Minsky Moment]

Funny how things are.  American businesses seems to have less problems with our language laws than Canadian ones.  Hey.  Go figure

All multinational businesses are used to dealing to weird national laws in all the places they operate.  Complying with local regulation is just a cost of doing business.  Of course, costs add up, and at the margin they influence investment.  Do we put our next branch in Peoria, or Quebec City or Hong Kong - it is just a calculation of costs of benefits.

In the grand scheme is something like the Quebec signage regulations a big deal?  Probably not - and certainly not for very large savvy multinationals like McDonalds that are used to making subtle and not-so-subtle modifications to local markets.  Indeed were the regs repealed tomorrow, it probably would have little impact on behavior by such groups, because they would be careful not to wish to offend local opinion regardless of what the law said.

For smaller companies, the cost is incrementally greater.  Again - is it a big deal compared to other issues?  Probably not in most cases.  But it is an incremental marginal cost - and why would you want to impose such a thing if you didn't need to?

[Grey Fox]

and why would you want to impose such a thing if you didn't need to?

That's exactly the point, we need to.

[Neil]

Oh and I forgot New Orleans.

I was going to say 'Isn't the francophile forgetting somewhere?

[Berkut]

Funny how things are.  American businesses seems to have less problems with our language laws than Canadian ones.  Hey.  Go figure

All multinational businesses are used to dealing to weird national laws in all the places they operate.  Complying with local regulation is just a cost of doing business.  Of course, costs add up, and at the margin they influence investment.  Do we put our next branch in Peoria, or Quebec City or Hong Kong - it is just a calculation of costs of benefits.

In the grand scheme is something like the Quebec signage regulations a big deal?  Probably not - and certainly not for very large savvy multinationals like McDonalds that are used to making subtle and not-so-subtle modifications to local markets.  Indeed were the regs repealed tomorrow, it probably would have little impact on behavior by such groups, because they would be careful not to wish to offend local opinion regardless of what the law said.

For smaller companies, the cost is incrementally greater.  Again - is it a big deal compared to other issues?  Probably not in most cases.  But it is an incremental marginal cost - and why would you want to impose such a thing if you didn't need to?

And it doesn't make much sense to compare retail places with non-retail. Of course McDonals will make whatever accomodation is needed to serve a new market - that is where their customers are!

But when you are talking about corporations that are decided where to put administrative staff, why deal with a bunch of bizarro language laws if you don't have to?

So the corporate (or regional) HQs go to Toronto, rather than Montreal. Sure, they may still open offices in Quebec, because they want to make money off those 5 million French speaking Canadians.

[Berkut]

I am having some trouble understanding this idea that the Quebecois are some kind of oppressed minority in Canada of all places.

I'm going to tell you a story.

Gather round people, Grey Fox is going to tell you a little story. It's going to be full of grammatical errors & abrutly ended Senteces. The Grammar Nazis will go insane. It's going to be an hoot!

For the purposes of this story, Berkut is a unilangual French Speaking Beauceron who owns a little Cesna plane.

It's 1964, Berkut is flying into a Regional Airport in Mauricie. I'm the Air Traffic Controler directing him. I speak English & French, Berkut French only. In what language are the information being transmitted between us? In English of course. That make sense right? We both speak French but we can't use it. At some point some realize that was stupid & brought it up to Parliament. The Anglos went insane! Don't allow French, it'll cause accidents! Pilots will die! Passangers too! Some listen, some didn't, Law was changed that in Regional Airports French could be used.

Fastforward 10 years into the future. Berkut has learned English & upgraded to being a Commercial Pilot for Air Canada. I'm the ATC in the Montreal airport Tower. He speaks French, I speak French. I'm directing him, in English of course. French would kill him, his crew & his passengers, obviously. At some point someone took a Stand & said it's enough. Cause an Uproar the anglos went batshit insane this time. Took it up everywhere & anywhere. They took it up so much that it's sometime credited to being the final straw that lock the first Parti Quebecois victory in 1976.

This is it? Really?

This is your example of the oppression suffered by the French in Quebec - the fact that the internationally accepted language of air traffic control is English?

[Berkut]

Fastforward 10 years into the future. Berkut has learned English & upgraded to being a Commercial Pilot for Air Canada. I'm the ATC in the Montreal airport Tower. He speaks French, I speak French. I'm directing him, in English of course. French would kill him, his crew & his passengers, obviously.

I don't know much about air traffic control, but I can certainly understand the basic idea that it would be swell if everyone up there flying around did so using the same language.

Sure, you are the ATC guy might understand each other fine, but will everyone else? Should the pilot be wondering which dialect or language he should be using when he flies in? What about the other aircraft in the area - can they understand what is going on?

If the ATC guy speaks in French to the French pilots, will his English be very good when speaking to the German pilots? Will he accidently speak French to a Spanish pilot, thinking maybe the pilot was French? Will the Spanish pilot mis-understand something said in French to the french pilot, and do something he should not?

I think a common language for all the people involved in guiding airplanes through the skies doesn't seem like such a terrible idea. And the idea that everyone flying planes should speak a common language is an example of oppression...wow - that makes me even more coming down on the side of the other Canadians. If that is your idea of oppression, and "predominantly french" nonsense on bi-lingual signs and making non-French signs illegal is your idea of reasonable response...damn, I suspect you all are simply a bit sensitive over very little.

[Grey Fox]

Not the fact that it's english. But the fact that 2 french speaking people can't use their own language because people around them might not understand.

2 Mexican, a pilot & a ATC. Do they speak English?

We are sensitive over this. There's 300 years of being put down behind it.

Also, I believe there's no way for you to even understand how we feel as a culture, society & people.