Why Were the Greeks So Clever?

[Jaron]

garbon, honey, let's go party.

[Warspite]

Why were the greeks different? I think it is because of how they were ruled. They were basically ruled by themselves. And by themselves I mean the part of the army that made winning battles possible, the hoplites. I'd not use the Myceneans as comparisons or even consider them relevant. The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years. I think the secret is in the dark age, it seems the only things the Myceneans really left was their language preserved through Homer and Hesiod. The language of Linear B survives and becomes greek, while they steal phonecian writing. The language is kept through the epic poetry and the values of Homer become the values of greece. Add that to the greek military system where the decisive branch was not a super elite charioteer, but rather a heavy infantryman. To reach the top of their society all you really needed was to afford armour and arms. Add to that nature of the greek countryside where small towns or large villages were the norm, rather than a large city dominating all the land for weeks around then you get a society where the most successful social organisation is one of small towns ruled by the men who fight and die for them. The polis allows for the successful cooperation of individuals for a common cause. Every other society needed a god-king to get the locals to dig a canal or build a temple. The polis allowed the local men to get together and agree, hey we need a temple, let's build one. They didn't need great architecture such as city walls (the battles were decisive in the field) they didn't need canals (they either didn't really have rivers or the narrow valley they lived in meant they were already next to it) etc.etc. I think this is one of the reasons there are so few archeological remains from the greek dark age. A social structure that didn't need stone and therefore didn't use it was emerging.

The polis and the citizen, that's what made the Greeks so clever. 

It's the Ideas that matter. Just remember, once Classical Greek culture had been wiped from Greece by the Goths, Slavs, Bulgars and Ottomans the country reverted to the festering shit hole it had always been.

You know what's awesome? Paragraphs.

[The Minsky Moment]

What's all this about Goths wiping out Greeks?  Has someone been playing to many AGEOD games?

[Razgovory]

What's all this about Goths wiping out Greeks?  Has someone been playing to many AGEOD games?

Goths couldn't wipe their own asses.  Nobody is impressed by wearing chalk and eyeliner.

[Sheilbh]

Yup. It's a classic comparison of a country built on trade (Greece) and on agriculture (Egypt). It's like comparing the Netherlands and Poland.

I hate to be monocausal, but country built on gay (Netherlands) and a country built on anti-gay (Poland).  There's something to this theory...

[Queequeg]

I hate to be monocausal, but country built on gay (Netherlands) and a country built on anti-gay (Poland).  There's something to this theory...

How was the Orange Republic built on Gay?  Maybe some of the early explorers were looking to break out of the sexual constraints of Western Europe, but that was more the Portugese, as the Dutch at first just wanted to break the Iberian monopoly on global trade. 

[dps]

I'm guessing part of the reason that the Greeks were so clever was that Spellus wasn't there, dragging down the average IQ.

[Razgovory]

That hasn't helped Ohio.

[Syt]

the first real usage of Greek we have is a really very clever introduction by a cup, warning that the person drinking will get beer goggles

Two Greeks, One cup?

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years.

I'm not up to date on greek archaeology but iirc even a decade ago the general concensus seemed to be titlting towards a far far shorter dark age period of a few centuries at most.

[Razgovory]

The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years.

I'm not up to date on greek archaeology but iirc even a decade ago the general concensus seemed to be titlting towards a far far shorter dark age period of a few centuries at most.

Shh.  Everyone knows we don't know anything about Greeks before 500 BC.

[Viking]

The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years.

I'm not up to date on greek archaeology but iirc even a decade ago the general concensus seemed to be titlting towards a far far shorter dark age period of a few centuries at most.

There is debate about this, some date them from 1050 BC til 800 BC, others 1200 BC til 500 BC. It depends on how you define it. It's really a sliding scale on the civilisation scale. The bronze age collapse (which starts the dark age) took up to a 150 years. When it ends is much more subjective. Is it when the greeks start sending out colonies or having history (rather than myth) or is it when the defining characteristic of the dark ages (lack of stone archeology) ends or is it the common use of Iron? 

[Josquius]

I would say... competition.

The Greek world was a patchwork of small-knited "nationalist" city-state that competed in everything, from sports to military achievements, from poetry to architecture. Not every creation was valuable; but the sheer quantity of works ensured that at least some of them were pieces of genius. For example, we know of only three great tragic authors, all three living in that great period of 500 to 400. But the real number of tragic authors was huge: even some philosophers wrote tragedies. I would suspect that in each city housing an amphiteater there was some kind of local author trying to have his plays on the stage, between those of Sophocles and Eurypides.

But that was the situation of most of the world.
And most of the world sucked.

[Razgovory]

The greek dark age killed their empire off and left greece barbaric for 700 years.

I'm not up to date on greek archaeology but iirc even a decade ago the general concensus seemed to be titlting towards a far far shorter dark age period of a few centuries at most.

There is debate about this, some date them from 1050 BC til 800 BC, others 1200 BC til 500 BC. It depends on how you define it. It's really a sliding scale on the civilisation scale. The bronze age collapse (which starts the dark age) took up to a 150 years. When it ends is much more subjective. Is it when the greeks start sending out colonies or having history (rather than myth) or is it when the defining characteristic of the dark ages (lack of stone archeology) ends or is it the common use of Iron?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claiming that the Greek Dark Ages go up until Athens becoming a Democracy.  I've never heard anyone claim it any later then Hesiod or Homer.  The reason it was called a Dark Age was because there was a massive gap in knowledge.  Historian probably know more about the 8th century then they did the 13th century

[Valdemar]

One day people will look back and ask "What were Americans so amazing?"

Hopefully, they'll discover the correct answer: "God."

Hod actually

V