Stalin's bid for a new world order (BBC on the Nazi-Soviet Pact)

[Valmy]

But the woman behind him is applauding.

She looks pretty grim though.  Who knows?

[Valmy]

More specifically, you tend to see it with newsreel footage of the Wehrmacht parading through Paris.  One thing I always wondered though was why show up & watch the damned thing if it upsets you so much. 

Things like that were usually staged for the newsreels back then.  It was probably an image the film crew wanted so they got it.

[Josephus]

Germans came & took his country. 

A common affliction at the time.

Yeah exactly. Geez. Guy was probably spoiled rotten as a kid. "Maaah...Germany took my country.".....Grow the fuck up. you're not the only one. Sheesh.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah that was pretty shitty.  Of course the French Communists had no trouble going on strike against the Imperialist War...and then later on claimed they had opposed the Nazis all along while all the collaborators were Capitalists.

Reminds me of a documentary the CBC did a few years ago about the music of groups in the US and Canada that had ties to the communist movement (mainly folk music groups).  After the pact between the Nazis and the USSR the songs were vehemently anti-war and when Germany attacked the USSR the songs changed to singing the virtues of war.

[Faeelin]

I'm not sure how serious to take this article, since Stalin viewed the West as weak and feeble after a decade of appeasement.

[Valmy]

I'm not sure how serious to take this article, since Stalin viewed the West as weak and feeble after a decade of appeasement.

You have proof of this?  He most certainly never thought any such thing.  He naturally presumed (being Stalin) their appeasement was part of some dastardly and cynical British plot.

It sounds like you are projecting Hitler's feelings on Stalin.

[derspiess]

Yeah that was pretty shitty.  Of course the French Communists had no trouble going on strike against the Imperialist War...and then later on claimed they had opposed the Nazis all along while all the collaborators were Capitalists.

Reminds me of a documentary the CBC did a few years ago about the music of groups in the US and Canada that had ties to the communist movement (mainly folk music groups).  After the pact between the Nazis and the USSR the songs were vehemently anti-war and when Germany attacked the USSR the songs changed to singing the virtues of war.

That's interesting-- do you have any other info on these groups?

[Faeelin]

You have proof of this?  He most certainly never thought any such thing.  He naturally presumed (being Stalin) their appeasement was part of some dastardly and cynical British plot.

It sounds like you are projecting Hitler's feelings on Stalin.

Look at Soviet proposals for a collective security pact in East Asia, which fell by the wayside; its efforts at a Franco-Russian alliance, which France abandoned because of opposition from the right; the failure of the West to stand up at Munich, despite Stalin's offers of support; their failure to get the Poles to agree to Soviet transit rights through Poland in the event of war with Hitler.

[Valmy]

Look at Soviet proposals for a collective security pact in East Asia, which fell by the wayside; its efforts at a Franco-Russian alliance, which France abandoned because of opposition from the right; the failure of the West to stand up at Munich, despite Stalin's offers of support; their failure to get the Poles to agree to Soviet transit rights through Poland in the event of war with Hitler.

What more proof do you need of Britain's efforts to isolate and destroy the Soviet Union using Germany as their muscle?

I take a bit of annoyance at the portrayal of France "abandoning the pact" when it was the Soviets who were the ones who broke it but hey whatever.  Especially how it was Laval's rightwing government, and not Blum's, who signed it to being with.

[Valmy]

Anyway I am well aware of the failures of the West I asked for proof that Stalin felt they way you portray him as feeling.  I never saw any evidence to suggest Stalin felt the West was weak or feeble.

[Razgovory]

Yeah that was pretty shitty.  Of course the French Communists had no trouble going on strike against the Imperialist War...and then later on claimed they had opposed the Nazis all along while all the collaborators were Capitalists.

Reminds me of a documentary the CBC did a few years ago about the music of groups in the US and Canada that had ties to the communist movement (mainly folk music groups).  After the pact between the Nazis and the USSR the songs were vehemently anti-war and when Germany attacked the USSR the songs changed to singing the virtues of war.

Orwell noticed similar behavior amongst the left during the Spanish Civil war.  All these anti-war types who had sneer at tales of valor now went on about the heroics of the international brigades.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah that was pretty shitty.  Of course the French Communists had no trouble going on strike against the Imperialist War...and then later on claimed they had opposed the Nazis all along while all the collaborators were Capitalists.

Reminds me of a documentary the CBC did a few years ago about the music of groups in the US and Canada that had ties to the communist movement (mainly folk music groups).  After the pact between the Nazis and the USSR the songs were vehemently anti-war and when Germany attacked the USSR the songs changed to singing the virtues of war.

That's interesting-- do you have any other info on these groups?

I spent a couple minutes searching for a link to CBC documentary I am thinking about but I couldnt find it. 

[Ape]

What is that guy crying for?

The Nazis just defeated France and are going to put all his Jew friends to death.

Actually we are not really sure who that guy is and where and when that picture was taken but it is usually associated with the Fall of France in 1940.

I've read that the picture (atually a newsreel) was taken when Germany occupied Vichy-France in -42

[Faeelin]

Anyway I am well aware of the failures of the West I asked for proof that Stalin felt they way you portray him as feeling.  I never saw any evidence to suggest Stalin felt the West was weak or feeble.

How did Russia break the pact?

In any case, Stalin saw them as weak, or at least in favor of a German-Soviet War, IMO after Munich.

[Valmy]

or at least in favor of a German-Soviet War

Ding ding ding!  Stalin turned it around and made it so the Germans and the West would fight, thus giving the British a taste of their own bitter medicine.

How did Russia break the pact?

I generally consider Russia invading Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Finland as a rather blatant disregard for article 3.  The part that requires them to lend assistance to League of Nations members who have been attacked?