Victoria 2

[Admiral Yi]

It's completely fine and acceptable (and necessary) for Johan to cut of discussion and say he's going with clergy.

The weird part is OHGamer.

[Josquius]

It's completely fine and acceptable (and necessary) for Johan to cut of discussion and say he's going with clergy.

The weird part is OHGamer.

Sure. But you would expect a better reason than 'Because I say so' even if its just a lie for PR purposes.

[Admiral Yi]

Sure. But you would expect a better reason than 'Because I say so' even if its just a lie for PR purposes.

If that's all he ever said it's pretty abrupt.  But based on my previous experience with Pdox forum I'm guessing Johan first explained the reasoning behind the decision, then there were 40 pages of ZOMG EAST PRUSSIA ZOMG ARTILLERY ATTRITION.  At some point you just gotta say basta.

[Josephus]

Nah...that was the first and last thing Johan said on the subject. FWIW, King was the one first having a go saying stuff like:

We like the name, so we just kept the same. They still do thier clergy stuff.

and

I mean if something is fixed it is fixed. I am not going to sit and pretend that something will change when it won't.

and then something about how he's a professional designer and knows better than anyone else:

And the icon as well, comeone people if we use the Victoria name we can simply import the icon and save development time for new features. Thus I think if you thought about it a bit more, or were just simply willing to trust that because I get paid to design games I might know what I was doing, then perhaps my choice was one of the better option.

Then Johan came on defending King, which to be fair, is the right thing for Johan to do. In fact, Johan's one line is taken out of a whole paragraph in which he said:

It will be called clergy cause that is the design I wanted. That should be enough.

However, it is also the basis for our pop-file setup. Another poptype to research and adapt the pops for one scenario is not just feasible, now matter how "easy" some random person think it is.

There is a reason that King and OHGamer's opinions matters on pop setup issues, as they are the guys that actually KNOW what pops do, and the impact of design for them regarding the amount of work. If the guys that made the research for Victoria1 and the VIP mod think a poptype is best suited then it is.

I'm basically disregarding any comments from anyone on whatever pops should be and what types should be, unless they have done a proper research and setup of all pops for let say Sokoto, Bastar and Ionian Islands.

Have fun, and lets focus on the details of the dev diary instead of an irrelevant detail.

I stopped reading after that, cause OHG came on throwing about his Mod powers.

[Josquius]

And the icon as well, comeone people if we use the Victoria name we can simply import the icon and save development time for new features. Thus I think if you thought about it a bit more, or were just simply willing to trust that because I get paid to design games I might know what I was doing, then perhaps my choice was one of the better option.

err....what?
I'd have thought they would be using all shiny and new icons this time around anyway but they're just recycling the old ones?
Besides, I could knock up a little pixel drawing of a man like the Victoria icons in a matter of a hour or two. And I'm not a professional artist (or even a particularly good one)

I'm basically disregarding any comments from anyone on whatever pops should be and what types should be, unless they have done a proper research and setup of all pops for let say Sokoto, Bastar and Ionian Islands.

Have fun, and lets focus on the details of the dev diary instead of an irrelevant detail.

So...input bad unless you do some really really hard research that we can't manage ourselves (despite it being our job) for us?

[saskganesh]

feedback involves give and take.

in this case, the fans give and pdox takes. or not. or something.


anyhow, seems like a siege mentality at work. I agree this is bad PR.

[HisMajestyBOB]

So...input bad unless you do some really really hard research that we can't manage ourselves (despite it being our job) for us?

Well you get a bunch of people making suggestions for things that would add quite a bit of complexity or additional research, then saying "I've never programmed before, but I'm sure it's something Paradox can add easily!", disregarding the fact that all the time it takes to research, code, integrate with existing features and debug takes time away from other, more important things.

Plus, most suggestions are just dumb.

[garbon]

Well you get a bunch of people making suggestions for things that would add quite a bit of complexity or additional research, then saying "I've never programmed before, but I'm sure it's something Paradox can add easily!", disregarding the fact that all the time it takes to research, code, integrate with existing features and debug takes time away from other, more important things.

Plus, most suggestions are just dumb.

Generally bad PR to tell customers that they have dumb ideas. Bad enough when you tell that to betas.

[Syt]

So...input bad unless you do some really really hard research that we can't manage ourselves (despite it being our job) for us?

In the past, at least up till EU3 that was the main job of the betas. Play testing always seemed to come second behind that.

[grumbler]

I'm basically disregarding any comments from anyone on whatever pops should be and what types should be, unless they have done a proper research and setup of all pops for let say Sokoto, Bastar and Ionian Islands.

I take it he is ignoring the comments of OHGamer and King, then, because we know fucking well that they did not (nor could anyone) do "a proper research and setup of all pops for Sokoto, Bastar or the Ionian Islands!" 

Nothing funnier than the old "ignore the man behind the curtain" defense.

[Faeelin]

So...input bad unless you do some really really hard research that we can't manage ourselves (despite it being our job) for us?

Well you get a bunch of people making suggestions for things that would add quite a bit of complexity or additional research, then saying "I've never programmed before, but I'm sure it's something Paradox can add easily!", disregarding the fact that all the time it takes to research, code, integrate with existing features and debug takes time away from other, more important things.

Plus, most suggestions are just dumb.

Eh. But we were told shortly thereafter that it is easy to fix.

[HisMajestyBOB]

So...input bad unless you do some really really hard research that we can't manage ourselves (despite it being our job) for us?

Well you get a bunch of people making suggestions for things that would add quite a bit of complexity or additional research, then saying "I've never programmed before, but I'm sure it's something Paradox can add easily!", disregarding the fact that all the time it takes to research, code, integrate with existing features and debug takes time away from other, more important things.

Plus, most suggestions are just dumb.

Eh. But we were told shortly thereafter that it is easy to fix.

The names of clergy or making new POPs/changing the POP setup?

Anyway, the new Dev Diary has pretty good stuff. Factories now act more like real, privately-owned factories rather than state-owned factories.

[Josephus]

[quote author=HisMajestyBOB link=topic=1964.msg161474#msg161474
Anyway, the new Dev Diary has pretty good stuff. Factories now act more like real, privately-owned factories rather than state-owned factories.
[/quote]

There goes its appeal for me...

[Habbaku]

Hm.  The latest DD has pushed me out of the "Won't-Buy" camp and into the "Wait-For-Reviews-And-Maybe-A-Demo" camp.

[Pat]

Paradox didn't use to treat their community like shit, but now they do. I can't help but to think, however, that it is related to their community becoming shittier. It used to be a small homogenous group of people all sharing an interest in the history of the world between ca. 1500-1800, generally quite well-read and erudite people, at least considerably moreso than the average, which created a certain atmosphere of kinship and alikeness in type of person even if not in opinion. Then they released HoI and attracted a very different demographic. It's like sitting down in the pub with your mates arguing a shared interest in a relaxed setting, only to find you can't hear what you're saying to each other because some people without any manners just arrived screaming the stupidest things to each other on the top of their lungs. And the patron is no longer smiling, he's angry and rude to people.