Converting to Judaism in ancient times

[Malthus]

In short ... there seems to have been small intermixing of any sort, whether by "Khazars" or by conversion of other Europeans; but the whole question is, unfortunately, fraught with controversy because of the competing imperatives of zionism, anti-zionism, and anti-semitism.

All an absurdity from an anthropological point of view of course: what possible difference does it make if one's ancestry is real or fictive? So far, the science appears to be on the side of "not much conversion, ancestry real".

Well pity that discussion has to be all about Zionism and Israel.

I find it odd that the Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Ashkenazi are all shown to genetically identical they all sorta look different to me.  Pity it has to be some sort of attack on Judaism that they might have converted and intermarried with locals.  I mean poor Jews: damned if they do intermarry and damned  if they don't.

Myself, I always liked the "Khazar" explaination, because it is so damn weird.  It is simply unfortunate that it is popular among Jew-hating cranks.

I personally think there is much too it, as the hefty populations of Jews in places like Ukraine otherwise simply defy explaination. But that isn't "proof", merely supposition on my part. 

[Valmy]

I personally think there is much too it, as the hefty populations of Jews in places like Ukraine otherwise simply defy explaination. But that isn't "proof", merely supposition on my part. 

The explanation for that is rather straightforward.  The Jews were massively expelled from Spain, France, and England and all moved East, eventually to Poland and Polish controlled territories because of their religious toleration.  Then the Russians moved in and conquered those territories.

[Malthus]

I personally think there is much too it, as the hefty populations of Jews in places like Ukraine otherwise simply defy explaination. But that isn't "proof", merely supposition on my part. 

The explanation for that is rather straightforward.  The Jews were massively expelled from Spain, France, and England and all moved East, eventually to Poland and Polish controlled territories because of their religious toleration.  Then the Russians moved in and conquered those territories.

There never were very many Jews in places like England. There were lots in Spain, most of whom very naturally went to North Africa, Germany, Italy and Turkey. Some small numbers of these may have made it as far away as Poland, either directly or as a result of further expulsions, but it is difficult to imaging how a relatively tiny population of immigrants became something like one-third of the population of Ukraine, and it is an awfully suspicious coincidence that, prior to the modern era, the kingdom that owned the present territory on which the Ukraine stands converted en mass to Judaism.

One has to believe that somehow all of those Jews died out or were converted, whereupon a tiny group of immigrants from Iberia arrived and wholly repopulated the place with Jews.

[Caliga]

 

Wait, there is some controversy over the existence/identity of the Khazars?  If so I had no idea the Judaism of the Khazars was anything other than accepted fact.

[garbon]

Very interesting thread.

[garbon]

Wait, there is some controversy over the existence/identity of the Khazars?  If so I had no idea the Judaism of the Khazars was anything other than accepted fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Debate

[Malthus]

Wait, there is some controversy over the existence/identity of the Khazars?  If so I had no idea the Judaism of the Khazars was anything other than accepted fact.

There is no dispute that the Khazars existed or that they converted. What is disputed is whether Ashkenazic Jews are descended from them.

Why is this a big deal? Mainly because it has been seized on by anti-Zionists and anti-Semites. Anti-Zionists say that this means that the Jews have no "historic right" to Israel, as the Jews are not the same as the Jews of Israel, being descended from Khazars (I guess conveniently ignoring shephardim); anti-semites have their own wierd take on this.

The result is that many Jews loathe the whole subject. 

[The Brain]

Even if Jews are descended from people who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago who gives a fuck? You can't go on a 2,000 year toilet break and expect your seat to still be there for you.

[Caliga]

There is no dispute that the Khazars existed or that they converted. What is disputed is whether Ashkenazic Jews are descended from them.

Why is this a big deal? Mainly because it has been seized on by anti-Zionists and anti-Semites. Anti-Zionists say that this means that the Jews have no "historic right" to Israel, as the Jews are not the same as the Jews of Israel, being descended from Khazars (I guess conveniently ignoring shephardim); anti-semites have their own wierd take on this.

The result is that many Jews loathe the whole subject.

Oh, gotcha.  To me the matter is irrelevant.  Jews have no right to the land of Israel IMO anyways, aside from the right that might makes. 

[Malthus]

Even if Jews are descended from people who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago who gives a fuck? You can't go on a 2,000 year toilet break and expect your seat to still be there for you.

Most Zionists are not of the opinion that the 2000 year old connection "justifies" Israel (or indeed that Israel requires justification) in any event. The subject is a red herring. 

[The Brain]

Even if Jews are descended from people who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago who gives a fuck? You can't go on a 2,000 year toilet break and expect your seat to still be there for you.

Most Zionists are not of the opinion that the 2000 year old connection "justifies" Israel (or indeed that Israel requires justification) in any event. The subject is a red herring.

Exactly.

[Malthus]

Even if Jews are descended from people who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago who gives a fuck? You can't go on a 2,000 year toilet break and expect your seat to still be there for you.

Most Zionists are not of the opinion that the 2000 year old connection "justifies" Israel (or indeed that Israel requires justification) in any event. The subject is a red herring.

Exactly.

Nonetheless, to be lectured at by some Jew hater or anti-Zionist that one is not a real Jew because one is descended from Khazars is annoying, even if no Jew actually cares about being descended from Khazars (except for Levites and Kohens, of course).

[The Minsky Moment]

I personally think there is much too it, as the hefty populations of Jews in places like Ukraine otherwise simply defy explaination. But that isn't "proof", merely supposition on my part.

I don't think the chronology works - there are still only a handful of Jews in Poland-Lithuiana as late as the 15th century, long after the fall of the Khazar kingdom.  The Jewish population doesnt really start to take off until the 1500s.  I think what is happening is migration from the widely dispersed but still substantial late medieval German Jewish population, fleeing wars and Lutheran persecution.

[The Brain]

Even if Jews are descended from people who lived in Israel 2,000 years ago who gives a fuck? You can't go on a 2,000 year toilet break and expect your seat to still be there for you.

Most Zionists are not of the opinion that the 2000 year old connection "justifies" Israel (or indeed that Israel requires justification) in any event. The subject is a red herring.

Exactly.

Nonetheless, to be lectured at by some Jew hater or anti-Zionist that one is not a real Jew because one is descended from Khazars is annoying, even if no Jew actually cares about being descended from Khazars (except for Levites and Kohens, of course).

Indeed. One would hope that they would stick to the issues, like baby eating.

[Viking]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees

However, as the Maccabees realized how successful they had been, many wanted to continue the revolt and conquer other lands with Jewish populations or to convert their peoples. This policy exacerbated the divide between the Pharisees and Sadducees under later Hasmonean monarchs such as Alexander Jannaeus.[3] Those who sought the continuation of the war were led by Judah Maccabee.

The Maccabees were involved in conversions to Judaism. The most famous convert to judaism in ancient times were the ancestors of Herod the Great. His family had only been jewish for a few generations.