Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Valmy]

fitness classes and parts of the gym - no

Yeah I would never join a gym with gender segregation either just FYI.

[garbon]

Wow an all or nothing arguement.  Nice one how original!

Swimming pools aren't so very different from the activities he listed.

[garbon]

fitness classes and parts of the gym - no

Yeah I would never join a gym with gender segregation either just FYI.

Yeah, that's gross.

[Admiral Yi]

Showers, yes - though many people take great care to cover up with towels so if you don't want people to see you you can prevent them from; saunas should be naked, but lots of people wear swimwear for them; toilets not really except for urinals, fitness classes and parts of the gym - no;

Changing rooms--pretty much by definition.

My highschool had a communal shower where everyone stood in a circle and checked out each other's wangs.

FYI I don't see this as a black and white issue.  But I would like to address a previous question to you: if women-only swimming hours are an acceptable accomodation for modest women, wouldn't straights-only swimming hours for modest straights also be appropriate?

[garbon]

FYI I don't see this as a black and white issue.  But I would like to address a previous question to you: if women-only swimming hours are an acceptable accomodation for modest women, wouldn't straights-only swimming hours for modest straights also be appropriate?

This kind of reminds me of how in college, we weren't allowed to room with people of opposite genders, yet a pair of gay boyfriends could room together.  Oh how a conservative approach to policy can allow for so many flaws.

[Sheilbh]

fitness classes and parts of the gym - no

Yeah I would never join a gym with gender segregation either just FYI.

I know a few girls who go to female only stuff at the gym.  I can't remember why, I think it was because they were worried about guys perving.

The revealing costumes not so much but not segregating things by gender is something we have been pretty good about.  Heck even Peter the Great copied that as one of his reforms by bringing the Russian women out of the Terems.

I actually take alot of pride in that.  Well pride may be the wrong word since I don't really have anything to do with it but it is something admirable I think.

I generally agree, within reason (I've no problem with single sex schools in principle, though I object in practice) but I think that we should focus on the stuff that matters not swimming or gyms because lots of women, for non-religious reasons as much as religious reasons are more comfortable not having lots of men around when they're wearing lycra.

Wow an all or nothing arguement.  Nice one how original!

All or nothing is hardly how I'd describe allowing gender segregation when degrees of undress or jiggliness are involved. 

Yeah I would never join a gym with gender segregation either just FYI.

We're not talking about pools that are just for women and just for men, we're talking about an hour or two a week just for women and a similar time for men.  Similarly not segregated gyms but if women want women only classes (or guys for that matter) then let them have it.  I'm fairly sure my old gym had a gay yoga group that included no women.

Somehow I imagine Marty wouldn't scream SEGREGATION! and SELF-GHETTOISATION! about a bunch of nubile stretching queers as opposed to bashful women.

FYI I don't see this as a black and white issue.  But I would like to address a previous question to you: if women-only swimming hours are an acceptable accomodation for modest women, wouldn't straights-only swimming hours for modest straights also be appropriate?

This may be my homosexuality showing through but I can't see how swimming groups defined by sexuality could ever be for modesty's sake.  I mean I would rule out that on hygiene grounds :p

[Valmy]

I know a few girls who go to female only stuff at the gym.  I can't remember why, I think it was because they were worried about guys perving.

Yeah and that is too bad.  I see those gyms and I don't like them but what can you do?

I generally agree, within reason (I've no problem with single sex schools in principle, though I object in practice) but I think that we should focus on the stuff that matters not swimming or gyms because lots of women, for non-religious reasons as much as religious reasons are more comfortable not having lots of men around when they're wearing lycra.

But I am against taking actions, setting up a bunch of segregated pool times.

And generally you can easily work out and swim without wearing sexy outfits, those are optional for those who want to.  Anyway this is about my personal preferences.

All or nothing is hardly how I'd describe allowing gender segregation when degrees of undress or jiggliness are involved.

Allowing?  I am simply against switching things around to help religious fundamentalists keep their women hidden away.  I am not really aware of that law that prevents it.

All or nothing is exactly the sort of arguement that says 'well if you are against all female pools you must also be against all female bathrooms'.  That is bullshit.

We're not talking about pools that are just for women and just for men, we're talking about an hour or two a week just for women and a similar time for men.  Similarly not segregated gyms but if women want women only classes (or guys for that matter) then let them have it.  I'm fairly sure my old gym had a gay yoga group that included no women.

They can have them I simply will not be joining that gym.  I don't like the message that somehow it is preferable to segregate groups.

Anyway this is just my personal preference and my opinion on the issue.  I am certainly not out to not allow something that already exists.  I am certainly not crazy about the idea of introducing more of this than already exists as some sort of public policy.  If people want to segregate based on gender or whatever they can do it themselves.

[Jacob]

fitness classes and parts of the gym - no

Yeah I would never join a gym with gender segregation either just FYI.

Yeah, me neither.  Nonetheless, I was surprised to find a "Women's Only" area of Fitness World ( http://www.fitnessworld.ca/ ) a rather ubiquitous brand of gyms in Vancouver.  It's not a big selling point (at least directed at me) but apparently some women are more comfortable working the weights in a women-only area.

The question, of course, is whether the fact that you wouldn't want to join such a club means they should be outlawed.

[Jacob]

Wow an all or nothing arguement.  Nice one how original!

Not at all.  Do you really think that women only parts of a gym or gender segregated washrooms are that different from gender specific hours at the pool?

[Jacob]

FYI I don't see this as a black and white issue.  But I would like to address a previous question to you: if women-only swimming hours are an acceptable accomodation for modest women, wouldn't straights-only swimming hours for modest straights also be appropriate?

No.  There's a difference between gender and sexuality.  Also there are practical problems in determining whether someone is straight or homosexual for the purpose of going for a swim.

That said, I don't see it as a black and white issue either, but I do think that it's pretty silly that voluntary gender segregation for something like swimming is considered so abhorrent for people who accept gender segregation without question in other similar circumstances.

For my part, I'm all for mixing and for getting rid of prudish modesty and so on, but I don't think it needs to be enforced on others.

[Valmy]

Not at all.  Do you really think that women only parts of a gym or gender segregated washrooms are that different from gender specific hours at the pool?

I do not believe that being in favor of woman only bathrooms means I have to be in favor of women only everything no.

[Valmy]

Yeah, me neither.  Nonetheless, I was surprised to find a "Women's Only" area of Fitness World ( http://www.fitnessworld.ca/ ) a rather ubiquitous brand of gyms in Vancouver.  It's not a big selling point (at least directed at me) but apparently some women are more comfortable working the weights in a women-only area.

The question, of course, is whether the fact that you wouldn't want to join such a club means they should be outlawed.

True good thing I never said I wanted any such thing.

What the hell I come out against introducing something and suddenly that means I want it outlawed?  Huh?

[Sheilbh]

Allowing?  I am simply against switching things around to help religious fundamentalists keep their women hidden away.  I am not really aware of that law that prevents it.

All I'm saying is that local government run swimming pools should be able to set aside a number of hours a week for single gender swimming, if there's demand for it in their community and it doesn't interfere with their general service.  I don't see what's offensive about this.

How is this about fundamentalism?

All or nothing is exactly the sort of arguement that says 'well if you are against all female pools you must also be against all female bathrooms'.  That is bullshit.

[
But you're arguing for nothing.  You're arguing that the state ban public pools from allowing single gender swimming times.  Surely you would oppose single sex changing rooms (if they had cubicles, perhaps) or single-sex saunas?  What's the difference?

[Valmy]

But you're arguing for nothing.  You're arguing that the state ban public pools from allowing single gender swimming times.  Surely you would oppose single sex changing rooms (if they had cubicles, perhaps) or single-sex saunas?  What's the difference?

Ok here we go: if we had changing rooms and saunas already in existance everywhere and everybody was fine with it then yes I would not really want to see them made man and woman only all the sudden.

All I'm saying is that local government run swimming pools should be able to set aside a number of hours a week for single gender swimming, if there's demand for it in their community and it doesn't interfere with their general service.  I don't see what's offensive about this.

How is this about fundamentalism?

I am against it the same reason I would be against single gender schools run by the government.  Fortunately over here the government does not do that anymore.  If they want to make a boys or girls club they are free to do so.  I am not interested in the government accomidating that particular demand, the government should be out to increase integration not introduce segregation.

[Sheilbh]

Ok here we go: if we had changing rooms and saunas already in existance everywhere and everybody was fine with it then yes I would not really want to see them made man and woman only all the sudden.

We're not talking about making them 'man and woman only' terribly suddenly (that's all or nothing), we're suggesting that if there's a demand for it in the community then that saunas and changing rooms in gyms should be able to set a period aside that is man and woman only so long as it doesn't interfere with their public service.    No more than that.