Ze burkini is a problem with Ze France

[Sheilbh]

Perhaps, but France has made clear their concern over Islamic dress before:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jun/25/france-burka-veil-controversy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3478895.stm

I agree but there's a world of difference between a hijab:

And a burka:


I don't think we should equate the burka (or the niqab, for that matter) with Islam because that suggests that the millions and millions of Muslim women who don't wear it somehow aren't in the Islamic faith.  It sort of aligns one's own view of Islam with that of the most backward mullah.

[merithyn]

I don't think we should equate the burka (or the niqab, for that matter) with Islam because that suggests that the millions and millions of Muslim women who don't wear it somehow aren't in the Islamic faith.  It sort of aligns one's own view of Islam with that of the most backward mullah.

Fair enough. Nonetheless, France obviously has a problem with the Islamic faith as a whole, and this is one more item of clothing that is under attack by them.

[Admiral Yi]

In Generation Kill the Marines call that bread Hajji tortillas.

[Valmy]

Fair enough. Nonetheless, France obviously has a problem with the Islamic faith as a whole, and this is one more item of clothing that is under attack by them.

Two hundred years of vicious anti-clericism and you think they only have a problem with the Islamic faith?  France generally dislikes religion in general.  They work hard to outlaw any new religion entering their country as a cult as well.  To take this as some sort of anti-Islamic thing only is to ignore their culture and history and buy into Muslim victimization.

It was once illegal in France for the Catholic church to educate children...think about that for a second.  That is one of the central things the Church does.

[Sheilbh]

Fair enough. Nonetheless, France obviously has a problem with the Islamic faith as a whole, and this is one more item of clothing that is under attack by them.

I think the French state has a problem with religion, which it's had for about 100 years.  The law that bans the hijab also bans large crosses, stars of David, yarmulkes and turbans.  It bans all conspicuous religious symbols from schools (and I think other public buildings, hence the problem with the swimming pool).

Having said that, I think it pretty clearly aimed at Muslims despite being equally applied.  I think the reason isn't simple Islamophobia (we need a better word for this) but a combination of two core-tenets of sort of French Republicanism, which made it appeal to both the left and the right.  It appealed to French secularism, which is considerably more hardcore than the US version and it appealed to French unity. 

The French Republic has a Jacobin streak that dislikes the idea of Federalism or, more specifically, ghettoisation.  For example last year the French Senate rejected a law acknowledging the existence of languages other than French in France (specifically Langue d'Oc and Breton) because it threatened the unity of the Republic.  So the argument was made that conspicuous religious symbols indicated a separation from the society of the French Republic, offended its secularism and that it was about the hijab specifically tapped into French concern with Islam.

So I think France has a problem with aspects of Islam but that a lot of those aspects that concerns it are ones that tap into pre-existing and long-standing French preoccupations.  I wonder if that's the same with most societies though.  I mean the Dutch don't like Islam because Muslims don't like gays and liberal sexual attitudes, arguably the English have problems because, unlike other immigrant communities, they don't just add to our national palate, have parties and in other ways behave discreetly....Not sure though.

[Sheilbh]

They work hard to outlaw any new religion entering their country as a cult as well.

Scientology should be a criminal cult.

It was once illegal in France for the Catholic church to educate children...think about that for a second.  That is one of the central things the Church does.

France has rather abandoned Republican values

Weep for France Jules Ferry!

[Valmy]

For example last year the French Senate rejected a law acknowledging the existence of languages other than French in France (specifically Langue d'Oc and Breton) because it threatened the unity of the Republic.

France is absolutely right about that.  Those languages should remain interesting cultural antiques not living languages to be officially recognized.  Regional nationalism does nobody any good and should be discouraged or at the very least given no official encouragement.

[Sheilbh]

For example last year the French Senate rejected a law acknowledging the existence of languages other than French in France (specifically Langue d'Oc and Breton) because it threatened the unity of the Republic.

France is absolutely right about that.  Those languages should remain interesting cultural antiques not living languages to be officially recognized.  Regional nationalism does nobody any good and should be discouraged or at the very least given no official encouragement.

I always knew that underneath all that studied American moderation you were a Jacobin

[Valmy]

That's Buddhism.  Women are just above animals but way below men on the reincarnation scale.  It doesn't stop the new age fucks though

Well similarly if the new age fucks were embracing some sort of nutty Buddhism instead of the hippy version they tend to take on that would be similarly as bizarre.  If these Muslim ladies were converting to some Alevi sect of Islam or somethigng more capatible with sanity and the western world that would be different.

[Sheilbh]

Well similarly if the new age fucks were embracing some sort of nutty Buddhism instead of the hippy version they tend to take on that would be similarly as bizarre.  If these Muslim ladies were converting to some Alevi sect of Islam or somethigng more capatible with sanity and the western world that would be different.

That's not a nutty Buddhist view, it's standard in Buddhism at the very least across South-East Asia.  I think my view is that divorced from the cultural surroundings and context of a faith people go for what they want and they have a convert's zealousy for it.  For the new age fucks religion fills the space that pseudo-Eastern interior design can't.  For ones to other faiths it's often different, in Islam I think a lot of people are looking for rules and a sort of austerity.

Although I never thought the Burkini (terrible name) was that bad:

Though I believe the problem Muslim women have with swimming is solved in this country by arranging women only times in the pool.

[Valmy]

Though I believe the problem Muslim women have with swimming is solved in this country by arranging women only times in the pool.

Wow that is horrible.  A staple of Western civilization for centuries has been the fact the genders hang out together, I know that is completely anathema to the Middle Eastern cultures and all but...

well that is why I really dislike religions that put ancient cultural values and claim they are eternal moral standards.  That is bullshit and total coocoo nonsense.

[Queequeg]

Millions of photos of attractive women with hijabs on the internet (just google image 'Iranian women'), why did you have to choose the one with a crucified nose and awful cheek bones?   

I don't see what is wrong with the "burkini".  I can still see that girl's ass.   

[Sheilbh]

Wow that is horrible.  A staple of Western civilization for centuries has been the fact the genders hang out together, I know that is completely anathema to the Middle Eastern cultures and all but...

Hanging around in state of semi-nudity is only a relatively recent staple.  I mean what that woman's wearing - which would allow a woman to swim with men - is no different from, as Viper says, what European women and men wore in the Edwardian period.

[Barrister]

For example last year the French Senate rejected a law acknowledging the existence of languages other than French in France (specifically Langue d'Oc and Breton) because it threatened the unity of the Republic.

France is absolutely right about that.  Those languages should remain interesting cultural antiques not living languages to be officially recognized.  Regional nationalism does nobody any good and should be discouraged or at the very least given no official encouragement.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I saw a couple of these at the local pool last weekend.

I admit to staring for a short time, but like everyone else, I got over it fairly quickly. Not sure why the French have a problem with it, other than the French have a serious problem with the burka, too. Basically, the French have a problem with the Islamic religion, it seems.

no, France has a problem with anything and everything that's a threat to the laïcité of the country. France had just as much problems and was just as 'intolerant' towards christianity at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.