Canadian Woman Allowed To Return Thanks To DNA Test

[Valmy]

It's not putting yourself in a sticky situation to go traveling to a country where you follow your governments travel advisory - in this case, the government says "A valid Canadian Passport is required for Canadians intending to visit Kenya", which this woman has.

I don't think Slargos was saying this particular instance was an example of the situation he was talking about.

[Malthus]

Heh, anyone thinking this is a "racial issue" should try dealing with the Canadian immigration authorities in Ukraine. 

Fact is, some places in the world are more productive of various sorts of scams and system-gaming, and the authorities are *much* more likely to be jaded and unhelpful if you have the misfortune to be from there - has nothing whatsoever to do with "race", necesarily (last I checked Ukranians were "white").

Really, Malty. Ukes are only white by the same loose definition that puts mestizos and moors in the category.

Next, you'll be claiming Russians are also white.

Who do you think you're kidding?

Racists?

Those are I think the only ones who care. 

[Eddie Teach]

What's even more hilarious is that he would probably be released in an instant if we simply turned off the foreign aid to those fuckers for even a day.

Signatures. Hah.

I'm sure the primary reason for the signature drive is to pressure your government rather than theirs.

[jimmy olsen]

Heh, anyone thinking this is a "racial issue" should try dealing with the Canadian immigration authorities in Ukraine. 

Fact is, some places in the world are more productive of various sorts of scams and system-gaming, and the authorities are *much* more likely to be jaded and unhelpful if you have the misfortune to be from there - has nothing whatsoever to do with "race", necesarily (last I checked Ukranians were "white").

Really, Malty. Ukes are only white by the same loose definition that puts mestizos and moors in the category.

Next, you'll be claiming Russians are also white.

Who do you think you're kidding?

Russians are white.

[Jacob]

Um...what a bizarre thing to say.  Obviously I do consider it one of the first duties of a government to help out its citizens abroad.

Well if you do, then I don't understand why you do not think it is outrageous that the government completely failed to help this woman who had done nothing wrong.

That you might consider it possible that your government might fail to do so and should avoid situations where the only thing between you and catastrophe is the quick action by federal bureaucrats is pretty much a given.  Sometimes the system fails.

In this case the catastrophe was that the government representative decided to deny your identity and your status as a citizen on the flimsiest of pretexts and without any evidence.  It has nothing to do with the perfidy or dangers of Kenya.  It is not that she decided to hike across the Swat Valley and now has to be ransomed.  It was the representative of her own government that failed her spectacularly.  And that is a scandal.

When you go abroad you are taking a risk, particularly going to a place like Russia or Pakistan or whatever.

Again, the location of the incident has little to do with the situation.  The scandal is that the government representative was the instigator and spectacularly failed in their duty.

Someone decided "she doesn't look like her passport" and asked the local authorities to imprison her.  Then they failed to investigate her identity and let her languish for months, in spite of evidence being presented to the contrary.

[Valmy]

Well if you do, then I don't understand why you do not think it is outrageous that the government completely failed to help this woman who had done nothing wrong.

I do think it is outrageous that woman got completely screwed.  The Canadian government fucked up big time.  Nowhere in this thread did I ever say her situation did not totally suck.  In fact I said she got screwed and you called me retarded for it.

[Jacob]

Beeb, I don't disagree with you. Put yourself in the place of the DFAIT civil servant though.

You have someone in Kenya who is claiming to be a Canadian citizen.  You have reports that Kenyan officials think she is using someone else's passport.  Are they just supposed to believe this claim right off the bat?

Now yes you can say that more should have been done.  But it's a tough situation, like I said.

And then you have her family from Canada contact you, you have a lawyer contact you and you have a surfeit of secondary evidence.

Look, I have all sorts of sympathy for embassy staff.  I grew up in a diplomat household.  I have tons of family friends at DFAIT.  That doesn't change the fact that this situation was a major embarrassment and the career of the person responsible should be over.

[Josephus]

You have someone in Kenya who is claiming to be a Canadian citizen.  You have reports that Kenyan officials think she is using someone else's passport.  Are they just supposed to believe this claim right off the bat?

Um yeah. Benefit of the doubt and all that legal shit.

If I'm in a country with a Canadian passport and the authorities in that country say it is forged, I would assume that Canadian Counsul officials will, at the very least, believe me over them. That would be a good starting point in my situation.

[Jacob]

I do think it is outrageous that woman got completely screwed.  The Canadian government fucked up big time.  Nowhere in this thread did I ever say her situation did not totally suck.  In fact I said she got screwed and you called me retarded for it.

You said she got screwed, then qualified it with a "that's the sort of thing you have to consider when you go to places like Kenya."  It's the second thing I object to.

When you go to a place like Kenya you consider the possibility of getting screwed by the local government there, and you take comfort in the knowledge that there is an embassy or high commission there and they'll help you out the best they can if you get fucked with egregiously.  If your own people fuck you that's entirely unacceptable.  It's not the kind of thing where you shrug and go "ah well, shouldn't have gone to Kenya then" - that sentiment is retarded; however, if that's not what you think I'll retract the application of the "retarded" label to you.

[Barrister]

That doesn't change the fact that this situation was a major embarrassment and the career of the person responsible should be over.

Okay, at risk of hijacking the thread, I hate how it has become the kneejerk reaction of people that when a mistake happens the person must be fired, or their career is over, or whatever.  Why should it be over?  Why should one mistake, even major, cut short a career that has been otherwise exemplary?

This is me probably talking out of my own experiences and feelings, but I have to make all kinds of very important decisions that effect people's lives in the course of my job.  I try really hard to make sure all of my decisions are based on evidence and not merely assumption, but I could see how it happens.

Why should the beauraucrat be fired over this mistake?  If he or shee is a career civil servant there's no other employer out there.

[Malthus]

To my mind there is no question that there has been a screw-up; the question is what motivated it. The article claims it was racism, pure and simple. I think it isn't so straightforward as that, but more likely to have been caused by the consulate in issue (and other consulates in similar circumstances) being bombarded with, and fatigued by, various fraudulent claims, making them slow to react to the genuine ones.

[Jacob]

That doesn't change the fact that this situation was a major embarrassment and the career of the person responsible should be over.

Okay, at risk of hijacking the thread, I hate how it has become the kneejerk reaction of people that when a mistake happens the person must be fired, or their career is over, or whatever.  Why should it be over?  Why should one mistake, even major, cut short a career that has been otherwise exemplary?

This is me probably talking out of my own experiences and feelings, but I have to make all kinds of very important decisions that effect people's lives in the course of my job.  I try really hard to make sure all of my decisions are based on evidence and not merely assumption, but I could see how it happens.

Why should the beauraucrat be fired over this mistake?  If he or shee is a career civil servant there's no other employer out there.

Because they made a disgraceful error that embarrasses the nation and the government.  At the very least, there should be no prospect of promotion.

[Barrister]

Um yeah. Benefit of the doubt and all that legal shit.

If I'm in a country with a Canadian passport and the authorities in that country say it is forged, I would assume that Canadian Counsul officials will, at the very least, believe me over them. That would be a good starting point in my situation.

I disagree with that.  If an accused person tells me the sun rises in the east I always demand proof of that statement.  There are some situations where you can give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume they're telling you the truth.  I don't think this is one of them.

The debate becomes that it appears this woman could and did prove her identity, and yet the officials continued to do little to nothing.

[Malthus]

That doesn't change the fact that this situation was a major embarrassment and the career of the person responsible should be over.

Okay, at risk of hijacking the thread, I hate how it has become the kneejerk reaction of people that when a mistake happens the person must be fired, or their career is over, or whatever.  Why should it be over?  Why should one mistake, even major, cut short a career that has been otherwise exemplary?

This is me probably talking out of my own experiences and feelings, but I have to make all kinds of very important decisions that effect people's lives in the course of my job.  I try really hard to make sure all of my decisions are based on evidence and not merely assumption, but I could see how it happens.

Why should the beauraucrat be fired over this mistake?  If he or shee is a career civil servant there's no other employer out there.

The matter allegedly reached the Ministerial level, so it isn't an issue of some lowly career bureaucrat making a mistake. The issue is whether it is a significant enough scandal for the Minister to resign.

[Barrister]

That doesn't change the fact that this situation was a major embarrassment and the career of the person responsible should be over.

Okay, at risk of hijacking the thread, I hate how it has become the kneejerk reaction of people that when a mistake happens the person must be fired, or their career is over, or whatever.  Why should it be over?  Why should one mistake, even major, cut short a career that has been otherwise exemplary?

This is me probably talking out of my own experiences and feelings, but I have to make all kinds of very important decisions that effect people's lives in the course of my job.  I try really hard to make sure all of my decisions are based on evidence and not merely assumption, but I could see how it happens.

Why should the beauraucrat be fired over this mistake?  If he or shee is a career civil servant there's no other employer out there.

Because they made a disgraceful error that embarrasses the nation and the government.  At the very least, there should be no prospect of promotion.

Why?  Now you've backed away from firing, but why "no prospect of promotion"?  So no matter what this person does over the next 10, 20 years they should never, ever be promoted?

I'm not saying nothing should happen, but why ruin someone's entire life because of a single mistake?  Especially a mistake not motivated by malice or ill will, but simply a poor decision honestly made?