Quo Vadis, Democrats?

[Razgovory]

So, the DSA is a "hostile takeover". From whom, exactly? The "let's check what our focus groups say" crowd?

Mamdani showed that you can win on a from an American viewpoint, radical platform.

I would say the United States are ahead of Europe there, as we are collectively going for retrograde nationalism with ordo-liberalism without a conscience.

From the majority.  The people who believe in Democracy.

[Sheilbh]

And was it three or actually four elections that he lost?

A great hero of the left, indeed

He lost three elections and - with Michael Foot also a hero for the left - saved the Labour Party. Not sure I entirely agree with a purely electoralist argument/ends justify the means and the measure of whether a leader is or isn't a "hero of the left" is how many elections they win. Tony Blair: Order of Lenin at this rate

I've not read the article. But Militant Tendency were (and are) not just a left-wing pressure group within the family of left-wing democratic politics. They're genuinely Trots.

[Sheilbh]

Kinnock lost to John Mayor.

Interestingly the last election with turnou over 75% (before the depoliticisation of New Labour) and to this day John Major received more votes than any other PM. I think because we remember Major as 92-97 - after Black Wednesday and being forced out of the ERM - we forget his effectiveness especially as a campaigner on the soapbox. Incidentally often discussed as an election the Tories would have done better to lose - then Labour would have to deal with ERM and it would probably be a one term government.

But also Kinnock should have gone before I think being leader of the opposition for almost ten years and two elections is tough to come back from. The people have formed an opinion that it's difficult to shake (especially if the governing party re-fresh their top team).

[Norgy]

I only remember The Sun's famous lightbulb with Kinnock's head. Free and fair elections and all. The last person to leave was to put out the light.

I think the journey of the Democratic Party is rather in the mould of Canada's New Democratic Party rather than British Labour.

Maggie Thatcher called James Callaghan's cabinet "hard left". In West Germany, Helmuth Schmidt called it "hardly left".

There is a before and after with Reagan and Thatcher, just like there is a post-George Wallace Democratic Party.
Before, televangelists were few. Before, being in a trade union was normal. Before, there was a goddamned working class, white, black and Hispanic.

I am not going in deep on this, as I am but an idiot, however, if you ask me, facts have moved left, while politics have moved towards the far right.

This post-factual thing, I would love someone more clever than me to explain. And, I know it begins with the algorithms.

[DGuller]

Mamdani showed that you can win on a from an American viewpoint, radical platform.

Yes, Mamdani won in NYC, against an array of flawed candidates.  Not exactly representative of the broader electoral prospects, even the flawed candidates part.  It also remains to be seen what damage he'll leave behind to discredit the likes of him.  Just because Republicans manage to avoid attribution for their misrule doesn't mean that Democrats can do the same.

I think the big error that lot on the left are making is assuming that if the current strategy doesn't win often enough, then it cannot be the best strategy.  The reality is that sometimes the cards are stacked against you, and you'll be facing headwinds on matter what, but that doesn't mean that some ways to play the cards are not much worse than the others.  Going in the DSA direction is playing a bad hand very badly.

[crazy canuck]

And was it three or actually four elections that he lost?

A great hero of the left, indeed

He lost three elections and - with Michael Foot also a hero for the left - saved the Labour Party. Not sure I entirely agree with a purely electoralist argument/ends justify the means and the measure of whether a leader is or isn't a "hero of the left" is how many elections they win. Tony Blair: Order of Lenin at this rate

I've not read the article. But Militant Tendency were (and are) not just a left-wing pressure group within the family of left-wing democratic politics. They're genuinely Trots.

I get your hatred for those who he opposed. I'm not sure that your hatred is justified, but I do certainly know that the person you say, saved the labour party also doomed it too electoral irrelevance and largely paved the way for Blair.

[Razgovory]

This is very weird.  After 2020, I complained about the defund the police protests.  I said that it really hurt the Democratic party.  I was told by several people here that they didn't really mean defund the police.  And really, it was just a few radicals and nobody listened to them.  Nobody in the Democratic party is actually for something that stupid.  6 years later we are championing defund the police again.


The DSA program looks like they had Donald Trump write it for them.  Abolish the military?  No border?  No prisons?  Non-citizens voting?  This is electoral poison.